Afghanistan Committee on Dec. 1st, 2010

[John Inns]

Mr. Chair, our comments have to be restricted to anecdotal information, in essence.

When we were formulating the needs assessment information, working with Mr. Saleh on a direct and indirect basis, he stressed the importance that he wanted to place on human rights, and wanted us to include a significant module on values and ethics to ensure that human rights were being exercised and a proper adherence to human rights was being exercised by his intelligence officers. We designed that into the program, and that's what I was referencing in my remarks about organization development being driven by certain policies and issues that were raised by the ministry's leader himself.

I can't comment on what it was like beforehand. I can only comment that we were asked by Mr. Saleh to include a focus on human rights in the design of the program.

We placed a significant emphasis on that. We had a good way of demonstrating human rights in an organization in a video. That material was well received. We had the same sort of discussion with the gentleman who ran prisons for NDS. He certainly didn't give us any pushback on acceptance of, adherence to, and respect for human rights in the conduct of his duties.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Sorry, I'll cut you off there, because we are a little short of time. But in your view they are eminently trainable, from what you've said?

[John Inns]

Absolutely. They had a true thirst for knowledge in virtually all subject matters that we raised. I think the illiteracy rate is lower in NDS than in other organizations. These people are not stupid by any means, and they understood what we were talking about.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Luxton, you talked about 300 counter-IED teams. How many in a team? How long does it take to train a team, and how long notionally would it take to train up 300 counter-IED teams?

[David Luxton]

That would be a long-term effort, meaning over the duration of the period now to 2014 there's adequate time to be training up that number of units. These teams tend to be small teams, specialized, and it does take time.

But there is of course now a renewed commitment to the kind of time horizon that will permit all of the elements that have to come together. It's not just training those teams, but it's making sure that they are trained and operating in the context of an overall strategy, and a plan for rolling out that strategy, including the training of mentors and coaching of those who would be training individual teams, and the supply of the necessary equipment.

So this would not happen overnight, but the impact would begin to be felt quickly, and certainly against that time horizon--with the right resources and commitment--there would be a very substantial indigenous capability by 2014, if not sooner.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

On the forensic side of it, what would be your potential involvement in the forensic side? When I say that, I mean to get to the signature on the IED, to get to who is actually making the IED. Is your company involved with that?

[David Luxton]

We are very much involved with that. We are in the process of operationalizing that type of capability for the Canadian Forces. This is precisely a part of what we do as this integrated approach to counter-IED.

So with these field laboratories, as they're called, one is able to do full-spectrum forensics collection and interpretation. So our role in that is to provide the laboratories, to provide the necessary forensic equipment, to teach people how to use it, and to help them understand effective ways to integrate that with what's happening with the IED network that's behind this activity and to use those forensics to be able to bring perpetrators to justice.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Gentlemen, thank you for the good work you and your colleagues are doing in Afghanistan.

I'd like to start with you, Mr. Inns. Some commentators have suggested that the Afghan army, the NDS, and the Afghan police shouldn't need to be trained by anyone, since the mujahedeen were able to defeat the Soviets in the 1980s. Do you have any comment on that, having done some training there?

[John Inns]

I think there's no question, from our experience, that the material we've put on the table for the NDS managers and leaders was extremely well received.

I would say there were a certain number of people who didn't get it. When you talked about the movement out of an autocratic management style and management culture into a participatory style, some people were not able to make that shift. And if they didn't make that shift, they were not able to get a commitment on the part of their subordinates to produce results.

I think people who did get it understood that this was possible and they understood what the result was that was required and then they pursued the result.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So you would agree that members in the NDS and the army and police there do need some training to be able to take over from the ISAF forces today and provide the same level of security?

[John Inns]

I don't think there's any question that this kind of organizational development is absolutely required.

One of the things we found was that there's not a lot of strategic thinking that goes on in the law enforcement sector in Afghanistan. I suspect it's generally across the public sector, but I don't have exposure to the other sectors. These people do not seem to focus on the point of going in this particular direction, and without that I think they react and they follow a process, and that process is not always fruitful.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How many of those employees of the NDS that you've trained would have been around in the 1980s in that organization?

[John Inns]

I think a significant number. I was frankly shocked at Mr. Saleh standing beside me in the graduation saying all of those guys were trained by the KGB. I was quite surprised by that.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So they were on the other side. They weren't fighting the Soviets. They were on the side of the Soviets back then. That's interesting.

Where did you do your training in Afghanistan?

[John Inns]

In the NDS academy, just down from the Intercon Hotel--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Is it in Kabul?

[John Inns]

Yes, in Kabul. People were coming from across the country, so we had representatives from all provinces.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How did you find the security issues with your employees who were there in Afghanistan?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will have to be your final question.

Go ahead.

[John Inns]

We were extremely well looked after by the embassy. We did not stay at the embassy. We did not stay in the diplomatic part of Kabul. We stayed as close to the NDS academy as possible.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Were your people threatened in any way while you were there?

[John Inns]

We received a couple of bomb threats that were direct, but nothing—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But you're not concerned about their safety going forward?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to wrap it up there.

Mr. Dewar, please, for seven minutes.