Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cory Anderson  Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Denis William Thompson  Chief of Staff, Land Operations, Department of National Defence

5:05 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

--and in my travels across the province I might hit the provincial reconstruction team once every fortnight, and I would be briefed. My principal interlocutor, to use that great expression, was Elissa Golberg, and that's where I would get the information upon which--

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

So she might have gotten it from Mr. Anderson and he might have passed it on--

5:05 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

Absolutely. He was her subordinate.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

So did you hear similar things, and did you have similar concerns as Mr. Anderson? You heard him. He was concerned about NDS as a place where we should be transferring detainees. He certainly had read the reports that people had access to, be it international organizations or others. Did you share the concern he has put forward at committee just in this past hour about transferring detainees to NDS facilities?

5:05 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

No, and the information that he introduced here at committee was in some ways new to me. But I didn't hear him specifically say that they feared transferring detainees to the NDS. What he seemed to say to me was they had trouble having them accept capacity-building efforts or training efforts--

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Or listening.

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

--and that they would do things such as react to tribal pressures. Well, my answer to that is, welcome to Afghanistan. It's a bloody complex place and it's full of tribes, and if you don't understand those links, you ain't ever going to make them--

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I'm actually putting forward the point that many have suggested, and still suggest, that NDS isn't accountable within the constitution--

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

I met Minister Saleh, who is the minister responsible for the NDS, and when he came to see me--and this was at Masum Gar, out on a forward operating base--and we discussed how to sort out Bazar-e Panjwai and Panjwai, I didn't get the impression that I was talking to a weak minister who didn't have a grip on his ministry.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

No. They're very strong. I wasn't concerned about their strength; I'm concerned about the accountability of the NDS, as has been suggested, to actually be accountable to anyone other than themselves or to a minister who isn't really accountable constitutionally.

The government will have everyone believe that we're trying to set up an equal equation between Canada and Afghanistan. Please. We don't go there. What we do need to know, though, is that when people come forward and say they have concerns about NDS, and when we look at NDS' track record when it comes to detainees--and I understand what you're saying about all the other information and working with them in partnership, but on detainees there seems to be a picture being painted, not just by Mr. Anderson but by others, that when it comes to detainees and the NDS, it's not a great combination.

I'm just wondering if you had heard that, and if you have, if you decided this was something that government should know about, to say, you know what, this agreement doesn't really work when it comes to our handing over detainees to the NDS.

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

I think I can say categorically no. Otherwise I'd be putting myself... I mean, you might as well lock me up and drag me away right now. Clearly, I was comfortable transferring detainees to the NDS or I wouldn't have done it.

What I find interesting is that Minister Saleh is a civilian. He's not a uniformed member of the NDS. I don't understand how that equates to somebody who's not responsible to civil authority. So I have a little problem with that. But I have to confess, I don't know the inner workings of the Afghan government at the Kabul level. I do know that Minister Saleh was regularly visited...maybe not regularly, but he was certainly one of the principal ministers that our ambassador, Ron Hoffmann, engaged in Kabul, and he was very receptive.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I was just talking about where NDS fits in with the accountability, and not individuals. But my time is up.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Dewar. Thank you, General.

We'll come back to the government side.

Mr. Dechert, please.

March 31st, 2010 / 5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

General Thompson, it's good to meet you. Thank you for your service to Canada and for the service of the people under your command.

I'd like to ask you about your understanding of applicable international law. What is your understanding of the Canadian Forces' international obligations under applicable international law with respect to the treatment and care of detainees?

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

Again, I'm not a legal expert. I can just tell you that what we train on is the third Geneva convention. We make sure we handle all detainees in accordance with the regulations that are laid out there, in terms of looking after them, providing them shelter, feeding them, giving them the privacy they require, access to the Koran, if they happen to be Muslim--all of that is adequately looked after, and they're treated with respect.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Did you at any time ever receive any instructions from anyone with respect to the handling of detainees that were contradictory to your understanding of applicable international law?

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

Never.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Do you believe that any of your predecessors or successors ever received any contradictory instructions or failed to follow applicable international law?

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

Again, you're asking me to express an opinion. I can't imagine it, because we're trained right from day one that you only obey lawful commands. If somebody sent me a command and said, okay, commit some travesty against this detainee, I would just refuse it because it's not a lawful command.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you.

I'd like to share my time with Ms. Gallant.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General Thompson, let's talk about training a bit. Prior to deployment, would you please describe the training that the soldiers would get on the ground with respect to the treatment of prisoners?

5:10 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

They will receive an entire package on PW, or prisoner-of-war handling, because this is part of general training. It's not something that you just tack on because you're going to Afghanistan.

The training would go through all the rights that a prisoner of war has under the laws of armed conflict and the third Geneva Convention, and then how you handle them, how you actually restrain them with flexicuffs, all of that technical stuff. Detainees are introduced at every step of the training when you're doing your collective training. When you start to move from your platoon, company, battalion, brigade training, there are always prisoners--as we call them, “PWs”, or “detainees” in the Afghan context--introduced in the scenarios, in order to practise not just the point of capture stuff, but how to take that guy and move him all the way back through that long logistics train and get him to what in a general war setting is the brigade prisoner cage, but in an Afghan setting is the detainee transfer facility at Kandahar airfield.

There are a lot of parallels between our general training and what we had to do for Afghanistan, and from a soldier's perspective, they're almost identical. The wrinkle comes in what do you do with the guy after he's in that detainee transfer facility?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

When the prisoners were under your authority at Kandahar airfield within the 96 hours before a decision had to be made, what precautions, if any, were taken in terms of ensuring that the prisoners didn't try to hurt themselves or hurt their fellow prisoners?

5:15 p.m.

BGen Denis William Thompson

Regarding the detainee transfer facility, to be frank, I'm not certain how much detail I can give you on it other than to say it is established by military policemen in accordance with international norms, or certainly Canadian norms, and the detainees are not left unsupervised so that they can harm themselves. The tools for them to commit suicide aren't at hand, if that's what your concern is.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Going back to the release, when they were not deemed to be part of the insurgency, were precautions taken also to ensure that they did get safely on their way, besides cab fare? For example, if a prisoner was concerned that the NDS might try to scoop them up, or the Taliban pick them up, were precautions taken?