Afghanistan Committee on March 31st, 2010

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

I believe, yes, and by the time I arrived there the system worked.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We talked with Mr. Anderson about the standards of international human rights and so on. Obviously, everybody in the world who signs on to it, and that includes Afghanistan, operates to the same standards. Perhaps I didn't phrase it properly with Mr. Anderson, but can we realistically expect the same performance from a country like Canada as from a country like Afghanistan with the people we're dealing with?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

I don't know. It's an opinion, but I know there is a UN standard for prisons and jails, and that's what our colleagues, part of the whole-of-government team from Correctional Service Canada, have been working toward. That's the standard they're trying to hit.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Yes, absolutely. Would that be easier to do in a country like Canada or easier to do in a country like Afghanistan or Somalia or Rwanda or the Congo?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

Clearly it's more difficult in the third world; otherwise we wouldn't be there helping them.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Exactly. Thank you.

To get to a more general question, and this is going to be pretty subjective and it may be indelicate--and you'll tell me if it is. In the kind of environment we're in in Afghanistan, can you accuse a minister or the government of things up to and including war crimes--because that has been alluded to by others--without some of that rubbing off onto the Canadian Forces? I understand why you may not want to answer.

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

I don't know. The bottom line is if there is a war criminal here, there's only one, and it's me. Read the TFSO. Read the arrangement. It is the commander of Task Force Kandahar, or Joint Task Force Afghanistan, which is the Canadian name, who is personally responsible for the condition of detainees' transfer and their subsequent care, feeding, etc. It is nobody else. It is not a minister. It is the commander. So for the period of time I mentioned, if something went awry, I was responsible, period.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I don't think anybody in this room would disagree that we support the decisions you've made. We support the work the military has done, and the civilians over there, under incredibly difficult circumstances.

The reason for my question is obvious. It goes to the politics of this whole situation, which, of course, is not your concern, so you don't need to respond to that.

During your time there--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

--we talked about visits, and the DFAIT chap mentioned, of course, that there was no military assistance other than transport. Were there visits, other than DFAIT, to the prison by civilian police, military police, Corrections Canada, in your recollection?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

Do you mean the NDS facility?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

In any facility, NDS or Sarposa.

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

Certainly Correctional Service of Canada went to Sarposa prison on a regular basis. I am aware that the CIVPOL, the civilian police, went to the NDS facility, or maybe the NDS went to them to give them some assistance in what are called “interview techniques”.

We're talking at a level of detail that as a task force commander I'm peripherally interested, but frankly I had a war to fight, so this thing isn't really on my blotter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hawn and Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests for appearing again. It's good to see you again.

One of the things I want to establish is that when you were there it was after Governor Khalid had been replaced. Is that right?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

No, I dealt with Governor Khalid up until his removal in, I believe, August 2008.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's right. I'm sorry, I should remember that, because I was in Kandahar when you were there. You had just arrived.

One of the things we raised concerns about at this committee was around Governor Khalid and about the reports around his conduct, because of course he was key to what was happening on the ground, and certainly there were allegations of Governor Khalid being involved in human rights abuse and torture. Were you hearing that kind of reportage in the field about Governor Khalid?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

I can't say that I could point out a specific report about Governor Khalid, but it has to be understood that he is a character. He got around the province and he made things happen. I doubt that we had 100% visibility over what he was up to either, but he was not the guy I was transferring detainees to.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay, so there was an understanding that you probably want to avoid him in terms of handing over detainees.

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

No, to be frank, I dealt with this guy on a weekly basis, often more frequently than that. I can certainly tell you that after the Sarposa prison break and following the Taliban taking of the Arghandab district, there was a big battle. We literally planned that battle around his pool table, a billiards table in the basement of the governor's palace. This guy got it. He knew how his province ran, and I made sure that I was as close to him as I could possibly be, because he had his levers on all the controls. Whether he was involved in the torture of detainees or not, I have no specific evidence that would suggest that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

There have been, I'll put it this way, comments about that, because certainly we heard at committee some witnesses who suggested that they had heard about their being involved--

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

Right, and if you read some of Graeme Smith's stuff from The Globe and Mail, he may allude to it as well, but at some point you can only act on the information that is provided to you. At least, in our case I know there are a sea of reports out there, whether they're from Amnesty International or whoever it happens to be. I work for the Government of Canada and I respond to and react to reports that I receive from Government of Canada officials.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On that, Mr. Anderson stated just before that he had never spoken with General Hillier of his concerns and he shared his concerns about NDS, and you heard it. Did he ever share his concerns with you directly about NDS?

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

Not directly, but remember, Cory Anderson was in the provincial reconstruction team--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I understand the difference.