Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes, to my knowledge.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Yes, to my knowledge as well.
I have an affidavit from a court case in the U.K., from someone who had a similar job to yours. The affidavit is quite revealing. It says a lot of the things that you're saying. It in fact says that the NDS does not appear to be of any ministry, nor does it appear to have to be overseen by any constitutional body. I'd suggest that it is not accountable to anyone, save the president. However, even this has been disputed.
There's further testimony going back to Amnesty International conclusions and Human Rights Watch that all say the same thing, that the NDS is implicated in torture, in human rights abuse. These reports were not state secrets. In fact, what this person who worked for the U.K. government and was in the region is saying is that in light of that, there's no way to work with the NDS; they can't be reformed. In other words, we should stop transferring detainees to NDS facilities.
Would you agree with that assessment that we should stop transferring detainees to the NDS facilities in light of the reports, that Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and many other institutions have stated that they just can't be trusted?
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I would agree with the bulk of that statement. It's certainly no secret the way the NDS has behaved over time. In my view, they are not accountable to anyone, perhaps other than the president.
Mr. Saleh is considered a de facto cabinet minister himself. The people we worked with on the ground in Kandahar over my time, Mr. Quyaum and now Mr. Momin, sit at the governor's table for meetings not unlike this, almost independent of the rest of the Afghans they work with.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
So it would be very hard for Canada to be saying it's following international law when it comes to human rights if we're in a partnership or have an agreement that relies upon the NDS?
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'm not so certain I would go that far, but I do believe there are inherent structural behavioural examples within the NDS that should give us pause, and that we as a community in Regional Command South, through ISAF, including our allies, should review, better now than never, whether they are a viable partner for the coalition going forward.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
In your opinion, should we be transferring detainees over to NDS, then?
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I don't see there being as much of a problem right now in us transferring detainees, because we have such a rigid oversight mechanism for the specific individuals we transfer over. We have, by and large, been able to get in and do interviews in a timely manner within, ideally, the 48-hour period in order to see them.
The challenge is how to reform the inherent structure of the NDS and how to change their behaviour. I do believe that Canada, through our history of promotion of human rights, should be concerned for all individuals who end up in the custody of an organization such as that, and not simply just the ones who we happen to transfer over ourselves.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
If I may, Chair, I want to read a quick synopsis of a recent event that implicated the NDS. It's from a Human Rights Watch report dated December 21, 2009. It's about torture and death attributed to the NDS.
...was concerned that the marks on Basir's body may have been signs of torture. The family took the body of the forensic department of the health ministry where an autopsy was carried out. The findings have not been made public.
The family reported that security agency officials later came to the house where the body was held and gave them the message to bury the body. When the family tried to take the body to Parliament, they said agency vehicles blocked their way, that the NDS basically inhibited their ability to bury the body, but also that their suggestions that the person was alleged to have committed suicide by the NDS, but in fact was tortured to death.
I have to say, with what I'm hearing from the U.K.—the U.K. has now stopped the transfer of detainees to NDS facilities—in light of the most recent reports and what you've told us, I believe it would be very difficult for me as a parliamentarian to have confidence in the NDS as a partner we can actually have trust in.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Dewar. Your time is up.
We'll come back to the government side.
Before we do, as a prerogative of the chair, I want to ask something. You mentioned the 15-minute visits you had with prisoners and that there really was no clear evidence of torture, although there may have been different allegations. Did you ever meet with prisoners prior to the 2007 new transfer agreement?
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
No, I did not.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
The old transfer agreement would not have permitted access, because that agreement didn't lay out access as a condition. Yet despite not seeing any prisoners, you were aware of the need to improve this based on what? Rumours? Allegations? And where were they coming from?
4:05 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
It was based on a multitude of factors. When I was in CAF in 2006-07, RC South was under Dutch command. The Dutch had very real and overt concerns. They didn't hesitate to share them. We, as Canadian officials, began to understand the situation on the ground, I think, a little better over time, and we started to realize that the NDS itself was in need of some reform. Our allies had more robust transfer arrangements at that time that allowed for monitoring and other aspects. We saw that we could benefit from their experience with NDS, specifically.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
So in spite of not really visiting with any of these prisoners, the recognition that we wanted to improve the transfer agreement was there. Since that point in time, in your visits, there has been no clear evidence of...
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Point of order, please. I'm wondering why the chair is engaging in questioning.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Okay, I just wanted to be clear, because I'm not used to this line of questioning.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
We did not visit the NDS facility routinely as civilians prior to May 2007.
March 31st, 2010 / 4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to quickly follow up on that. You did say, Mr. Anderson, and this is pretty much a quote, that in your visits you were very thorough, and you never uncovered a specific allegation of abuse. Earlier you said that the Afghans were well versed in the art of manipulation. That would be the Taliban, I'm guessing.
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
It would be the insurgency, yes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Were those statements accurate? Would someone be reluctant to say they'd been abused, do you think?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I think so. Again, that's conjecture on my part, without the benefit of specific signs of abuse on the body.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That is even given the Taliban manual that basically says to allege abuse in all cases, no matter what?
4:10 p.m.
Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'm not aware of an example, when I interviewed people or was privy to conversations with people in the custody of the NDS or in Sarposa Prison, of their being briefed to charge...
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
It's part of their training. It is part of the Taliban training.
I want to go to conversations you had or meetings you had with Minister MacKay. You mentioned that you'd met many times. It was really somewhere between one and five.