Evidence of meeting #5 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
What was the reaction when you suggested that handing them over to NDS was a bad idea and we should be monitoring or following them?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
I thought we should have some right to visit them. But you know, I'm not a lawyer or a human rights expert. It was my gut feeling as a nice little old lady that we should be able to go in and see what happened to those guys.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
But this nice little old lady was concerned about the reputation of Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Yes, but I was also concerned about these people. You see such terrible things in Afghanistan that I thought, let's not go there; let's not get into that.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
So you came up with this because of your own feelings and on your own initiative. Did you know at that time that other countries were negotiating transfer agreements that actually had monitoring in place?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
I didn't know that.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Olexiuk, thank you for appearing here today and sharing your experience with us. You mentioned a few minutes ago, and also in your human rights reports in 2002 and 2003, that there were serious concerns about human rights abuses in Afghanistan. I think you just said a few minutes ago, in response to a question from Mr. Harris, that you didn't think Canada should be handing over detainees to the NDS. You also told us it was common knowledge that these kinds of abuses went on in Afghanistan.
So if that was true, why do you think Canada would have entered into an agreement in 2005 to transfer prisoners to the NDS? You had made it abundantly clear in your report, right?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
I could ask you the same question, I guess. I'm sorry, I really don't know.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
But you were there. You filed these reports in 2002, 2003, and 2004, consistently pointing out the problems with human rights abuses, yet the government of the day entered into a transfer agreement with NDS in 2005.
So why do you think it was drafted that way, and who would have made that decision?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Sorry, I don't know.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay, let me ask you a question. It's been suggested that General Hillier signed the 2005 transfer agreement. Given your experience, do you believe this would have been a solo project conducted by General Hillier, or would there have been input from senior government officials and perhaps even ministers of the crown in something like that?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
As I said, I know there was input from my department, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. We were asked to review it and comment on it. I can't tell you how far up it went.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Does it make sense to you that the minister would have been aware that this agreement was being signed, or even that the decision was made to transfer prisoners to the NDS?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
I'm sorry, I don't know.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Would that make sense to you in a situation like this, given the common knowledge about human rights abuses that were going on in Afghanistan? Do you think somebody would have informed the minister that these kinds of things happen with the NDS, and perhaps that should be taken into consideration in negotiating an agreement? Does that make sense to you?
5:05 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
It's not an agreement, first of all. It's not a legal document; it's an arrangement. The minister, as I recall--things may have changed, I've been out for a while--was always very aware of memoranda of understanding that were signed. They're not exactly legal, but they're stronger than an arrangement. An agreement is more like having treaty status, I think. The international lawyers can correct me on that.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
You mentioned earlier that Justice Arbour knew about human rights abuses in Afghanistan--
April 14th, 2010 / 5:10 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
Oh, she did.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
--and had mentioned it. Obviously senior levels of government and senior officials in Canada would have been aware that torture happened in Afghanistan. It was part of the culture, the style of government there at the time. So don't you think it makes sense that somebody at a very senior level of government would have at least been aware that was a risk?
You made these reports and they went to your senior officials in DFAIT. Do you think any of them would have been shared with the minister or his staff?
5:10 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
You know, I don't know what happened to the reports after I sent them in. I'm sorry to be so blunt. I didn't get a lot of feedback. So you'd have to ask someone else about the chain of command.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Year after year you filed these reports raising the alarm about possible abuses in Afghanistan. From one year to the next, was there any report back to you from anyone in Canada that they acknowledged these reports, that they thought Canada should be commenting about those reports to the Afghan government or the NDS?
5:10 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
As I mentioned earlier, I had one in the first year saying, “Thank you very much, Eileen, this was helpful.”
5:10 p.m.
Former Senior Policy Advisor, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, As an Individual
It was a young fellow. He was in his first or second year at Foreign Affairs.
