Afghanistan Committee on April 21st, 2010

[Arif Lalani]

I certainly do.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Do you remember the contents of the document?

[Arif Lalani]

I have looked at it. Yes, I do.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Could you tell us about the contents of the document?

[Arif Lalani]

I think I'm probably able to address your question, so maybe if you finish your question, I will of course try to answer it to the best of my ability.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I finished my question. You can answer.

[Arif Lalani]

Let me try, then. On the content of the document, I think there are parts of this document that you have that are unredacted. I had to look at that document to find out what editing was done. I might point out to you that if a document or a report comes across my desk as the ambassador, or as the director general, as I am now in my job, it's there because I'm going to edit it to make it more clear, to make it more focused. That's all that was involved. That's standard operating procedure.

The main point of that document was that a certain international organization wanted Canada to do something about notification of detainees. That part, and that is the part on which we wanted the right people to know and for the right people to take decisions, was what was left in the message to give it focus, because that's what the message was about.

As I pointed out in my prepared remarks, one of the fundamental issues that you have seen in all of the reporting is that issue of notification, and that issue of notification, in fact, was settled, and a decision was taken a few days after that message was sent.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

[Inaudible--Editor]...Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to ask Mr. Sproule a quick question. I will read you the text I have in front of me.

It says:A memo obtained by The Globe and Mail shows that in 2006 the federal government was briefed on a lobbying campaign by NATO allies aimed at getting the Kabul government to create stronger safeguards for detainees after prisoner abuses elsewhere. “London, The Hague, and Canberra...are deeply concerned about the absence of solid legal protections for detainees which--in the age of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib--imperils domestic support for the Afghan mission, said the memo...written by diplomat Richard Colvin.

But also, it continues: “The memo was written after consultation with Catherine Bloodworth...as well as the military attaché in...Kabul embassy”. And it was approved by you. Do you remember approving this memo?

[David Sproule]

Yes.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That means you knew there was great risk of torture in Afghanistan. In a way, this is proof that you knew.

[David Sproule]

Mr. Bachand, our reports for several years indicated there was a high likelihood that torture was going on in Afghanistan detention facilities. However, we were confident that, based on information we had, no Canadian transfer detainees had been abused or mistreated. Our view was that, nevertheless, we had to do everything we could to improve the capacity of the Afghan government to ensure those standards were met.

That's what we did when we consulted with our allies in terms of coming up with common ways to raise that standard, as well as the very specific bilateral measures that we took, which I described in my statement. In other words, we had a very proactive strategy. It wasn't a matter of being satisfied with the status quo, but helping the Afghanistan government to improve the standards that it had at that time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sproule.

We'll go back to Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you for your service to Canada and for sharing your experiences with us today.

I'd like to address my questions to both Mr. Sproule and Mr. Lalani, as your terms kind of overlapped when the new arrangement was being negotiated and put in place.

Mr. Sproule, I think you mentioned earlier that you reviewed Mr. Colvin's reports in detail. You also mentioned that, late in 2006, increasing numbers of prisoners were transferred to the Afghan authorities. Can you take us through the process of how the new agreement came about, beginning with Mr. Colvin's reports, how you would report them to Ottawa, and who would see them in Ottawa? Also, how did that result in the agreement that was eventually signed when Mr. Lalani was ambassador?

[David Sproule]

I'd be happy to.

On the detainee issue, as I mentioned, much of our efforts were directed at improving the notification system. This required constant effort to ensure that, as soon as possible, ICRC authorities learned that a detainee had been transferred so they could oversee matters at the detention facilities.

But we also knew that it was important that we added more oversight, particularly with the increasing numbers of detainees, so starting in the fall, as a result of our reporting and in conjunction with our work with headquarters--both DND and Foreign Affairs--there developed an understanding and an agreement between our armed forces and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission to give them special access and provide them with information and the wherewithal and resources to undertake this monitoring for us. In addition, as I said, we thought it was important to supplement that with actual assistance to the Afghans so that their capacity was better and their facilities were better. Our RCMP's efforts with the police contributed to that.

During the early part of 2007, our headquarters was actively engaged in developing a yet more robust system, and that was put into place very soon after Mr. Lalani arrived as ambassador. That system is what we have now. We have perfected that in terms of our techniques and our procedures. As I think Ambassador Hoffmann mentioned, it has actually allowed us to identify where there are issues that we have to look at and, in some cases, where there are incidents we have to look into.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So would you say that it's hard to argue that Mr. Colvin's reports and concerns were ignored?

[David Sproule]

Well, indeed, Mr. Colvin's reports were an integral part of providing information that Ottawa needed to put in a more rigorous system of monitoring--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So the concern was raised and the government and the department responded.

[David Sproule]

Oh, absolutely. Part of my job as ambassador was to ensure that not only were those messages conveyed, but from our point of view, if we thought it was necessary to assist Ottawa in actually implementing concrete measures to do that.... It wasn't good enough to keep reporting; it was important that we actively participated in the development of plans to address the issue at hand.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Would you say these concerns were addressed in a timely manner?

[David Sproule]

I am confident that as we got more information, as we learned more about the system and some of the obstacles and challenges we faced, we kept improving our game, so to speak. All of those considerations, including Mr. Colvin's advice and reporting, helped us develop this very rigorous system that we now have in place.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Lalani and Mr. Hoffmann, are you confident that we now have the systems in place to ensure that Canada's international obligations are being met in this regard with respect to prisoner transfers?

[Arif Lalani]

Thank you.

I am very confident that during the time I was there and when I left we were certainly meeting our obligations.

[His Excellency Ron Hoffmann]

I fully share that view.