Evidence of meeting #7 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
MGen Timothy Grant
I'm not sure why, but it was clear to me that it was not an option.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
MGen Timothy Grant
The military chain of command made it clear to me that it was not an option that the military could become involved in. We didn't have the expertise to do it.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, General Grant.
We'll move to the next question.
Mr. Bachand, you have seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Welcome, General Grant and Mr. Bachand.
I have here a description in chronological order of the events related to Afghan detainees. I am considering the period during which you were there, General Grant. As for you, Mr. Buchan, you are very well aware of this issue. You were in Afghanistan and you also worked for Foreign affairs. So I think you may be able to answer my questions.
I will start with December 4, 2006. I will read the entry in English because, unfortunately, the document is in English.
3:55 p.m.
An hon. member
Unfortunately?
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Unfortunately, yes.
I am quoting:
A report from Kabul passes along the concerns of NATO allies that detainees may “vanish from sight” after being transferred to Afghan authorities, and that there is a risk that they “are tortured.”
Mr. Grant or Mr. Buchan, did you see this 2004 report from NATO saying they were concerned with this issue?
4 p.m.
Former Political Director, Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of National Defence
Yes. I'm familiar with that document, with identifier Kabul-0160, I believe.
That was in the context of an Afghan government decision on how it would manage its detainees—which ministry would take lead responsibility. I don't believe that's something I can address in public from that perspective, because it concerns their internal affairs. However, if we are looking at the issues raised in that document, it talked about the absence of legal status for detainees, and in the line you quoted I believe the emphasis, if you read further, is on the fear that prisoners who should legitimately be detained will be able to leave the system, either by buying their way out or by other illegitimate means.
My memory of that document is that it's not one focused on the issue of abuse as such, but more on the perspective of people slipping out of the system. Is that correct?
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, but if they disappear-- By the way, this is not the only quote about people disappearing. So this means that when detainees are transferred to Afghan authorities, they can disappear, which is rather worrying. It is unlikely they boarded an airplane to a tourist destination by the Mediterranean.
Mr. Grant, I believe you were the commander of Canadian forces during this period. Did you see this report?
4 p.m.
MGen Timothy Grant
Not having it in my hands, I'm not sure whether I have seen it or not, Mr. Bachand.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
All right. I will continue quoting.
End of December 2006: The Canadian Embassy writes in its human rights report for 2006 that “torture” is common in Afghan jails. The word “torture” appears repeatedly. This report was drafted in large part by Catherine Bloodworth, a Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade...political officer who handled files relating to human rights, justice and counter-narcotics.
Did you see this report drafted by Mrs. Bloodworth? The question is for both witnesses.
4 p.m.
Former Political Director, Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of National Defence
Yes, I saw this report. I also saw the reports for 2005 and 2004 which contained the same references. There was no significant change compared to what we knew about the situation in Afghanistan. Indeed, it was almost the same report as that of the preceding year and the year before.
What I think is very important to note in this report is that, at the end, in the recommendations section, there are no recommendation for a change of policy regarding Afghan detainees.
4 p.m.
MGen Timothy Grant
Yes, I have read it.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
And you did not think these two reports contained enough evidence to conclude that there were immediate risks warranting a suspension of transfers? These are reports from our own staff saying there were risks. I simply want to remind you that the Geneva Convention prohibits transfers when such a high level of risk exists.
We also have this in March of 2007:
The three Afghan detainees whose case is being investigated by the MPCC cannot be found after investigators spent a month trying to locate them, in breach of the transfer agreement.
You were there at that time, Mr. Grant. It happened under your command. Did you know that the military police looked for the three detainees for over a month and did not find them? Do you recall this?
4 p.m.
MGen Timothy Grant
I'm aware that the National Investigation Service were conducting investigations. I was not briefed on all of the details, but I know that because of the environment in Kandahar, they had challenges in physically getting hold of those individuals. In some cases they were successful and in other cases they weren't. They were very limited in their ability to move outside the wire and to conduct what you would refer to in this country as a normal police investigation.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
4:05 p.m.
Former Political Director, Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of National Defence
This is not a case that I know specifically.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Okay.
I will go on. This was announced in April 2007:
The Globe and Mail reports that 30 transferred Canadian detainees were “beaten, whipped, starved, frozen, choked and subjected to electric shocks during interrogations”.
Did you read this Globe and Mail article published in April 2007?
