Evidence of meeting #8 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
The NDS is one detention centre, but there are also several others elsewhere. We transfer to the NDS only, but you would make sure that all detention centres agree to the procedure.
4:25 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Terrorism and Counterterrorism Program, Human Rights Watch
The NDS is the intelligence service, and it has many detention centres throughout Afghanistan. Because they are responsible for national security prosecutions, they take custody of virtually every detainee transferred by NATO forces.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You've used two minutes and 13 seconds and you had four minutes.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I will continue.
According to your document, only 21% of guards or investigators use documents and gather evidence, while 40% use other methods of investigation. But it seems that those 40% either refused to reply or do not did not wish to say whether they used torture to gather intelligence.
Am I reading your document correctly?
4:30 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Terrorism and Counterterrorism Program, Human Rights Watch
That's correct. I can't speak to what an individual meant by checking “other”, but the important part is that only 21% of the officials surveyed used documents and evidence collection to build a case.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Is there a way to conclude an investigation other than by collecting documents and evidence? If, as you say, 79% of the people cannot read documents or gather evidence, what other way do they have to get their job done?
4:30 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Terrorism and Counterterrorism Program, Human Rights Watch
Unfortunately, the other method they have is to torture detainees into providing possibly truthful but probably false confessions.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Ms. Prasow.
We appreciate you being here before our committee today. We look forward to maybe hearing back from you. I also suggest that in the course of time, if you decide you could have elaborated on something...we have a larger document than you presented today; we thank you for that and for cutting your comments, but if there is something you would like to add, the committee would welcome that.
We will continue with the second hour of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan. I remind committee members that there will be votes at 5:30, and we want to give our guests the same opportunity as the last guest.
We are continuing with our discussion and study on the transfer of Afghan detainees. Testifying before us today, from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, is Michel Coulombe, assistant director, foreign collection.
We welcome you to this committee today and look forward to your comments. You were present for the last hour. Please give your introductory comments, and then we'll go into a round or two of questioning.
4:30 p.m.
Michel Coulombe Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon. I am pleased to be here today to speak to the role that CSIS plays in Afghanistan in support of Canada's national security interests.
CSIS has publicly confirmed that it is present in Afghanistan and has been there since 2002. And although we generally keep our overseas activities very quiet, we decided to make an exception on Afghanistan in an effort to ensure that Canadians are as informed as possible about our country's number one foreign policy priority.
CSIS is in Afghanistan to support the Canadian mission in that country and to gather intelligence that alerts us to terrorist threats against Canada and Canadian interests. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the Government of Canada would call on CSIS to play a role in supporting such a large, complex and ambitious project as the Afghan mission.
Our work in Afghanistan assists in all facets of the whole-of-government mission. Intelligence collected by CSIS personnel in theatre has led to the disruption and dismantling of insurgent networks planning imminent IED and car bomb attacks against military and civilian targets. At the same time, we collect intelligence to support Canada's overall strategy and posture in the broader region.
In addition to supporting the Afghan mission itself, the service is also mindful of the direct threat from extremist elements operating in the region whose goals are more ambitious than simply ridding Afghanistan of foreign interests. Here, of course, I am referring to terrorist networks, such as Al Qaeda, which continue to attract aspiring and violent extremists from abroad, including Canada. Canada has investigated and continues to investigate individuals who are suspected of having traveled to the region for the purpose of training or engaging in insurgent and terrorist activity, and who may ultimately return to their countries of origin, or other Western states, as combat-trained and experienced terrorists.
We are aware that Parliament has been seized with issues surrounding suspected insurgents held in detention and their alleged mistreatment at the hands of Afghan authorities. On this matter, CSIS has looked into our own activities in Afghanistan as they relate to the transfer of detainees.
I can confirm that when requested to do so by Canadian Forces, CSIS interviewed a number of suspected insurgents captured by, or in the custody of, the Canadian Forces prior to their release or transfer to Afghan authorities. All of the interviews we conducted took place under a structured process administered by the Canadian Forces, primarily in order to assist with the identification of detainees.
At the time, the Canadian Forces looked to the service for our cultural knowledge and experience in carrying out effective interviews for intelligence purposes. The decisions to transfer detainees to Afghan authorities, however, were not made by CSIS.
CSIS has not conducted any interviews of any suspected insurgents in Canadian Forces custody since 2007, partly because the Canadian Forces themselves have built up their own capacity to conduct interviews.
It is important to point out that in Afghanistan, as in Canada and everywhere else the service operates, our personnel are bound in every instance by applicable laws, ministerial directives, and internal policies. Our activities are also subject to the full review of the Security Intelligence Review Committee, SIRC, and the inspector general of CSIS. Both report regularly on our activities, either to Parliament in the case of SIRC or to the Minister of Public Safety in the case of the inspector general.
In closing, I would simply wish to impress upon the committee the importance of the service's contribution to the success of Canada's and NATO's overall mission in Afghanistan.
As parliamentary and public deliberations around these important matters continue, I would like to remind everyone that CSIS personnel are proud to serve our country professionally and with great dedication both in Canada and abroad, and willingly assume the varied risks involved in the type of work that we do.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to appear before this committee. I will be happy to take your questions.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Coulombe, for coming to testify. I have just a couple of questions.
You said that CSIS has not conducted any interviews of suspected insurgents in Canadian Forces custody since 2007. When in 2007 did you cease conducting interviews?
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
It was the fall of 2007, in October or November.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
That was the time around which the detainee transfers were halted, as you may know from the debate that's been going on.
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes, Mr. Chair.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Yes.
Can you tell us when you first conducted the interviews? Also, how many detainees do you believe CSIS interviewed over the years that you've been there, until 2007?
4:40 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Chairman, in terms of the number of detainees we have interviewed,
that is a question I am not going to answer because, in my opinion, it could compromise national security and the security of our employees on the ground in Afghanistan.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Sir, this is my last question, and then I'll share my time with my colleague.
Can you explain to me how it might breach the national security of the country? I wouldn't force you to answer the question, but just explain to me how and why it would breach national security.
4:40 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I believe revealing the number of interviews gives a window in terms of our capacity on the ground and it could give an idea of the number of people we would have deployed in theatre.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Go ahead, please, Mr. Rae. You have approximately five minutes.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Coulombe, in the third paragraph you talk about the work you do in terms of gathering intelligence. Would you regard NDS as your partner? Who do you work with? What agencies of the Afghan government do you work with most closely?