Evidence of meeting #9 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
By me, by the department, by Foreign Affairs, by the Government of Canada. That agreement was approved by the Government of Canada.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Fine: by me.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Well, you're trying to draw a sort of picture of whether someone put the agreement before me and said, “Here, initial it.” I can't honestly recall that.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
No, that's not the way it is for--
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Not necessarily, partly because this is a form of a memorandum of understanding. This is not a formal treaty.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
It is, but it's a memorandum of understanding. It is not a treaty and it wouldn't go through the normal treaty process of seals and approvals and all that, cabinet and all that stuff.
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
It was a totally different type of agreement. The agreement is the same; it's called an MOU. If you look at the other agreements, they are exactly the same.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
The involvement of General Hillier, then, was simply, as you stated, to meet with General Wardak and to sign it off and that was it. Did he as general at any point give you input? From what you're telling me here....
I'm just trying to piece this together. I did take the time to read the The Unexpected War around this, and from your testimony today, it's clear to me that it was actually something that DND seemed to be the lead on. Is that correct, in terms of the transfer?
4:05 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
It may be fair to say that DND was the lead, but it was very clear that it had the full support of the other key department in the Government of Canada in this affair, which is the Department of Foreign Affairs. I am assured that if General Hillier had not signed the agreement, David Sproule as our ambassador would have signed it in his place--in which case, we wouldn't be having this conversation about General Hillier, we would be wondering whether David Sproule was authorized to sign it.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
It's not a matter of authorization, it's a matter of why the person who signed it, signed it. I guess there is some confusion here, because the only rationale I can glean from what was written in the book and testimony from you is that General Hillier knew General Wardak well, and therefore it was a convenient way to sign off the agreement.
4:10 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
General Wardak, as I understand it, actually asked General Hillier to sign it, because from his perspective, General Hillier, because of his personal relationship with him, carried more credibility than anybody else in the system.
4:10 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Well, If I'd been there, I would have signed it. It wouldn't have been appropriate for General Hillier to sign it if I'd been there; of course not.
4:10 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
But I don't think under the circumstances it was inappropriate or it was appropriate. As I said, it would either have been for the ambassador to sign it or for General Hillier.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I guess I am asking the question because I think most people would think, notwithstanding that it's not a formal treaty, that this agreement was something that Canada was wanting to have established with the Government of Afghanistan, the terms of which should be, I will say, our terms with agreement of the Afghan government.
So I'm a little uncomfortable with the fact that we would have asked General Hillier because General Wardak knew him well, and therefore they could have a conversation and sign it off. I say that because, first of all, I thought that was the job of our diplomats, and if they're speaking on behalf of the government, usually that's done by diplomats, not by generals.
So I guess my question is why was it General Hillier was allowed to sign that agreement when normally that would be the job of a diplomat?
4:10 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Well, I can't answer that question because I wasn't there, and in terms of communication with General Hillier or David Sproule--
4:10 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
The Government of Canada is in charge of this file. General Hillier's a leading member of the Government of Canada.