Evidence of meeting #26 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Howard Migie  Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Paul Orsak  Chair, Grain Vision
Robert Davies  Chief Executive Officer, Weyburn Inland Terminal Ltd.
Bob Friesen  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Rob Lobdell  President, West Central Road & Rail
Avery Sahl  As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our 26th meeting. We're here to discuss the task force report on implementing marketing choice for wheat and barley.

With us today, from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, we have Howard Migie, director general, strategic policy branch. Welcome, Howard. From Grain Vision, Manitoba, we have Paul Orsak, chair. And, finally, from Weyburn Inland Terminal Ltd., we have Rob Davies, chief executive officer. Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing with us today.

We have time for a presentation, of course, and then we'll open the floor to questions.

Mr. Migie.

11:05 a.m.

Howard Migie Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to come before you today, particularly as chair of the task force on implementing marketing choice for wheat and barley. In addition to the two members of the task force here, the other members are Brenda Brindle, Mike Bast, John Groenewegen, and Bruce Johnson.

Our task, Mr. Chair, was to recommend options on how best to implement marketing choice. We were asked to identify and propose how to address certain technical issues and transition issues, both for a voluntary Canadian Wheat Board and for the Canadian grain industry.

Our report was released on Monday of this week by Minister Strahl.

In the report we used the name CWB II as the transformed Canadian Wheat Board, which would be owned by farmers and operated on a voluntary basis, without any government regulatory powers.

Paul Orsak will speak for four minutes or so on the proposed business model for CWB II and preparing for change in forming CWB II, and then Rob Davies will speak again for about four minutes on the launch of CWB II with transition measures and how a competitive grain industry would operate with marketing choice, and then we'd be pleased to answer question. So in total we think it will be about ten minutes maximum.

Let me turn it over to Paul to go over the first part of the report.

11:05 a.m.

Paul Orsak Chair, Grain Vision

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

Thank you for the invitation to be part of your deliberations as you discuss very important issues respecting the wheat and barley industry and its implications for farmers and the entire wheat and barley value chain.

The task force recognized early in its deliberations that while the issue of marketing choice is primarily a matter centred on how farmers such as me will market their wheat and barley, it has large implications for the Canadian Wheat Board obviously, but also for the entire value chain. It cannot be presumed that nothing would change except for the farmers or for the Canadian Wheat Board. The task force, by necessity, had to consider how the elimination of the monopoly powers of the Canadian Wheat Board would affect the entire industry. There will be a number of cause and effect situations that may happen, and while it would be foolish to predict how each and every business will react, we did have to consider whether certain business conditions would bring value to farmers and at the same time would not hamper competition for farmers' grain.

First, some context for our business model. My remarks this morning will centre on perhaps one of the more interesting components of the task force report. It's interesting I think because farmers, I believe, are genuinely hungry for information about what a new Canadian Wheat Board might look like and how it might operate in a market choice environment.

It is important to stress that the business model we propose for a new and restructured Canadian Wheat Board is but one option for a new model.

The task force was always cognizant of the need to ensure that our recommendations need not only provide a reasonable probability for a successful launch and a sustainable business model for the new CWB, but we had to balance this with the need to ensure that future enhancements to the competitive regime in grain marketing, handling, transporting, and processing would still proceed and that we would not see an erosion or flight of capital from the industry. In fact, we believe that creating a climate for even more investment in the industry in all areas is not only healthy for farmers and the industry, but necessary to ensure the western Canadian grain industry remains competitive with existing and emerging international competitors.

The task force felt it was important to suggest at least one option, even though, as will be obvious from a careful reading of our report, it ultimately must be up to the board and the management of what we call CWB II to consider what its business model and business plan should be. The task force did not want to presume or be too prescriptive about these matters, as ultimately it must be up to the CWB II to position itself and determine what its value proposition will be to competitively and effectively bring value to farmers.

Now I'd like to outline our suggestions for the business model. Our option envisages CWB II as a commercial entity owned and controlled by farmers. The task force believes CWB II can create value for farmers by building on the strengths of the existing Canadian Wheat Board, namely, its strong customer relationships and knowledge of their requirements; its solid reputation for pricing, delivery, and contract execution with buyers; the fact that many producers desire to see any new version of the Canadian Wheat Board as a producer-controlled grain marketer; and its experience in operating a pooling system for producers.

Additionally, CWB II could or should develop new, innovative pricing products or new food safety protocols. We believe it can build on its strengths by reducing supply chain costs through the purchase or contracting of facilities. It could sell some services, such as its transportation and weather expertise. Importantly, it could also market crops other than wheat and barley.

Our option suggests the sale of shares in CWB II. This would clearly enable farmers to see an alignment of their interests with CWB II by investing in it. It is, of course, also a mechanism to provide the company with additional capital. As you will have read, we suggest the shares not be tradable for a two-year period, the first two years.

Clearly, contributing to a high probability of success for CWB II would be the transfer of Canadian Wheat Board assets. Adding together the intangible assets I have just referred to and the tangible assets as outlined in the table on pages 6 and 30 of the report would give CWB II a significant start-up benefit.

Finally, if I can just take a minute more, I would like to give you a perspective that I think you might find interesting. Prior to my work on the task force, my personal belief was that the voluntary CWB would be competitive in the marketplace, and it would do so primarily through the offering of pooled and cash price options.

I did not force myself into the position of having to think deeply about what the value proposition of a CWB II type of entity would be. I looked at it more from the perspective of a farmer whose natural vantage point is as a supplier-customer. From that vantage point, I currently see a variety of offerings from a variety of companies.

Each company has its distinctive characteristics, and as a farmer, I fairly easily choose which best matches my needs. The farmer in me assumed and said that another entity in the business with a unique and different approach would bring value to me, both directly and indirectly, as competitive influence improved offerings across the board.

I still believe that to be the case. But I felt quite strongly that to be really competitive, a transformed Canadian Wheat Board would have to change its focus to cash price offerings instead of price pooling.

As a result of being forced to think much more deeply about it, along with the benefit of vigorous discussion amongst the task force, I've come to see things slightly differently. I believe the CWB II has an exceptional opportunity to differentiate itself in the marketplace, and a value proposition that includes price pooling as one of its features could be the underpinning of its success.

To many farmers, me included, the current price pools are relatively unattractive. There's simply too much cost associated with them. However, in a market choice environment, I believe price pooling can be an extremely valuable offering to farmers. A new environment, a new focus brought on by the discipline of a competitive marketplace will mean the management of CWB II would look at things much differently. With a focus on cost containment, without quality over-delivery, without arbitrariness in pricing between classes, with tighter management of the logistics end, and with our focus on risk management, I can get really excited about the possibilities. In fact, I can easily envisage that farmers will eagerly flow a significant portion of their marketable grains, including current non-board grains, through a pool.

It's a matter of price risk management for farmers. As margins tighten and risk management becomes much more important to farmers, this has the potential to be truly a unique and important value proposition for CWB II.

Some farmers may elect to put more through the CWB II than ever before by including other crops. I believe many will commit a significant proportion to CWB II when it has proven itself capable and professionally managed. Personally, I can foresee myself putting a significant portion of not only my own wheat production but now other crops as well into CWB II pools. I will view it as a highly valuable risk management vehicle with a level of professional management that is currently not easy to access and perhaps beyond my own level.

The best comparison I can think of is the mutual fund industry. Mutual funds are just really investment pools. They are voluntary, of course, and they compete in a very sophisticated marketplace. They are growing and thriving as investors commit large portions of their portfolios to them to avail themselves of the professional management they offer. I think there's very little doubt that the competitive nature of the capital markets is what drives value into this kind of investment.

The same, I believe, would be true for the operations of price pooling for CWB II, and it would provide a unique and competitive value proposition to farmers. Combined with innovative and farmer-friendly financing instruments, I can get positively excited about the possibility of marketing grains, oilseeds, and special crops, price pooled through an entity such as CWB II.

I thank you for this opportunity, and I'll turn it back to Howard.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Howard Migie

We'll set up Rob with the final closing....

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Mr. Davies.

11:15 a.m.

Robert Davies Chief Executive Officer, Weyburn Inland Terminal Ltd.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I'll speak to the launch of CWB II and how a competitive grain industry may operate with marketing choice.

The launch of CWB II will require that significant preparation be undertaken by all marketplace participants, as there will be changes to many practices that have existed for years across the spectrum of the grain marketing system. Starting with the CWB, they will have time through periods A and B, as outlined in your report, to ensure they have a business plan in place and that they have the correct staff and skill complement to be successful in the new marketing choice environment.

CWB II will reinvent itself, creating a new vision and some new contacts, designing programs, and providing an outline of its value proposition to farmers to move forward with.

Ensuring that systems are in place for CWB II to access financing in the future, to allow the continuation of pools to farmers, and to access financing for export sales will require some lead time and some document creation, as well as practical experience in the new operating environment.

The federal government will have a number of transition issues to ensure required changes are made to the Canada Grain Act and the Canadian Grain Commission to support the requirements of a change to marketing choice for prairie wheat and barley growers. The changes required will provide certainty around the question of producer cars and will also provide authority to monitor, investigate, access necessary data, publicly report, assist in dispute resolution, and quickly resolve any issues of non-competitive grain handling industry behaviour, for both the benefit of producers and the industry.

In addition, the administration of the current cash advance system, which is now administered by the Wheat Board, would need to be moved to another body.

Finally, the government will need to move forward with measures to enhance rail competition, such as improvements to the shipper protection provisions in the Canada Transportation Act. Consistent concerns were raised regarding effective rail competition. These issues were outside the specific mandate of the task force; however, they are important in ensuring an effective transition to marketing choice. From the commercial industry perspective, we need to be very clear on one point. The marketplace needs certainty through the transition period. Industry will get contracts in place, both privately and at the Winnipeg Commodity Exchange, but certainty of timing is required, and that is part of the lead time provided by the task force recommendations.

New contractual arrangements between industry players will need to be established. This includes port and country terminal operators, exporters, and end-users such as millers and maltsters, both domestically and internationally.

While these changes will likely result in changes to cropping patterns, they may actually provide for more certainty for farmers and for industry and also give Canada additional ability to meet the requirements of end-use customers.

Farmer understanding will be a critical component of a successful transition. While farmers currently market some of their production, such as feed grains, oilseeds, and special crops, outside the CWB, a shift to marketing choice of previously controlled grains will require new risk management protocols for farmers, and they will need to review their sales and marketing strategies to ensure they meet the business needs of their farms in the new marketing choice world.

It's expected that shifts in crop production patterns will occur as the direct impacts of logistics and marketing costs become apparent. This is good for the industry and for farmers in the long term, but there will be a period of adjustment. Grain companies, too, will need to ensure that sufficient financing is in place and that their farm customers understand the new requirements in the marketing choice world. The current CWB contracts have fairly low levels of enforceability due to the ability of the CWB to market the entire western crop.

Wheat and durum growers will have to contract much more accurately than they were previously required to, and this will have collateral impacts on the Canadian grading system, as the current grade standards may no longer fit with the requirements of end-use customers for quality specifications.

While the changes required may seem somewhat daunting, the reality is, if we want to move to a Canadian grains sector that operates with effective competition in marketing, handling, and transportation, that has effective price-discovery and hedging mechanisms, and that has a strong, viable CWB II as an option for farmers, a lot of work will be required. This change should not be expected to be accomplished quickly.

In conclusion, in the package of recommendations provided, the task force sought a balance between giving CWB II financial transition measures and sufficient time to have a high probability of success, while still encouraging existing and new investors to participate in the Canadian grain sector, all within the context of providing farmers with marketing choice.

The task force believes that if marketing choice is introduced in a careful, considered way, but without unnecessary delay, an efficient, effective, and competitive grain marketing system will serve grain producers and the overall grain industry in the long term.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Thank you, gentlemen.

We'll now move to our round of questioning.

You may want to be ready to use your translation. It says English, number one; French, number two; Mr. Easter, number three, so be prepared for that.

11:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Mr. Easter, seven minutes, please.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen.

If there's one thing your report has certainly done, it's made the United States grain industry happy, both from the multinational sector and from the producers in the United States. They've been trying to destroy the Canadian Wheat Board for eleven years, and in one fell swoop this minister seems to be going to do the same thing--going to do the U.S. bidding.

In any event, I've seen quite a number of task forces in my time, but I have never seen one such as this, with so little analysis, so little background data. Obviously, it was just working on assumptions before it started, without going out to collect the evidence to make its argument.

Howard, could you provide this committee with the following: first, a complete list of all the meetings held by this task force, the locations of the meetings, and a list of the attendees; secondly, a list of all the submissions made to the committee, and which were solicited and which were not; and thirdly—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Slow down, Mr. Easter, we need a chance to catch up.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

—a list of any economic evaluations, reports, or analysis done by or for the task force?

I don't expect you to provide that today, but I do expect you to provide it to the committee.

Now, Mr. Davies, in his last statement, quoted from the report, on page 8, where it says:

The Task Force believes that if marketing choice is introduced in a careful, considered way but without unnecessary delay, an efficient, effective and competitive grain marketing system will serve grain producers, customers and the overall grain industry.

Mr. Davies, can you provide to this committee any evidence, studies, analysis, or other documentation to support the belief expressed by your comments? And I mean evidence; I mean contract evidence, not supposition.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Mr. Davies.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Weyburn Inland Terminal Ltd.

Robert Davies

I certainly can give that, Mr. Chairman.

I guess, by it's very nature, a belief is not necessarily supported by evidence. I think the committee took significant time to review some of the options. We have provided five options, I think, as ways the system could work. Certainly, there's work to be done, and I think we've outlined some of the areas where we'll need to ensure there's a competitive environment going forward, but we clearly had the task of providing the beginning of a “how” template. That's where we started. I think we have an excellent start, and we've provided some background on the ways the marketplace could function. Certainly, there will be changes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Mr. Migie.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Howard Migie

I will come to the first part of the question. The task force was given a particular task. The minister did not request that we look at the question of whether the government should move in a particular direction. The policy direction was given to the task force.

What we were asked to do was to identify and examine a number of either technical issues or transitional issues that should be addressed and how to address them. It wasn't a question of doing a study on whether or not the CWB, with monopoly powers, is more advantageous or not. Our task was really to identify issues. In most cases, people came to us. Any group that came to us, we did meet with. Through our e-mail system, we had 21 people who wrote into us, and we shared that with the group. We had the benefit of that information, and those people didn't request to meet with us.

A number of companies indicated they wanted to come forward and provide some information, primarily on transition, where they were concerned about the transition time and adjustments to it, and I can indicate....

So we had four meetings, as a group, and at each of those meetings.... I'm sorry?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Can you provide that to us? Howard, I asked you to provide that to us. If that's the case, that you were to move just in a policy direction--and in Mr. Davies' answer it's clear that you don't have evidence. So why would you say in the report that you believe...? We're talking about serious consequences here, guys. We're talking about giving up single-desk selling through the Wheat Board, and the Wheat Board says--and they sent it to you in the report--the loss to producers will be somewhere between $530 million and $655 million annually.

If we lose that single-desk selling...you know Howard, your credibility is on the line. You've been with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada since the seventies. Your credibility is on the line here. If we lose the Wheat Board, you know under trade law we can't get it back. This is not about beliefs; this should be about evidence, facts, analysis. That's what it should be about.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Mr. Migie is just trying to answer your question, Mr. Easter.

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Howard Migie

That is a different question than what this group was asked to do. It's very appropriate in my capacity to be assisting the minister and the government to implement the policy--that is really my job. In terms of our particular task, we weren't asked to examine the various studies.

There are studies on both sides of the issue. There have been a tremendous number of studies. A number of them support and would say the monopoly powers of the Wheat Board are beneficial. Other studies talk about costs. But that wasn't our job at all. We weren't asked to look at that. We weren't asked to deal with that. We had a job for one month to flesh out the option of marketing choice. That's what we've done, and that's what we said we did, and we presented one viable model that we think would be a good model to implement marketing choice.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Twenty seconds, Mr. Easter.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

In terms of the Wheat Board's presentation to you, they submitted a response to your questions on October 13. Do you then as a task force--or is this another case of no evidence--accept the findings of the Wheat Board with respect to the benefits of the board's activities? You outlined them, you would know those, and they range in benefit between $530 million to $655 million annually. Do you dispute those?

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Howard Migie

The task force didn't deal with that part of what the Wheat Board provided because that wasn't what we asked them to provide. We could have sought views of people--who supports which position and why--but that wasn't our task; it was to look at moving in this direction means...what? We asked the Wheat Board a number of questions, and we used the information they provided to answer the questions. In addition, they chose to provide information that answered a different question than we had asked, so as a group we didn't try to determine whether or not we would agree with the numbers provided.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Thank you, Mr. Easter.

Mr. Roy, please.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I agree with Mr. Easter. I too have some reservations about your position. Basically, you're telling us that you've come up with a proposed model because you were asked to do so and that in fact, we're proceeding blindly. On page 22 of the French version of the report, you state that adjusting to a system where producers are free to choose how to market products will result in both winners and losers.

Based on what you're proposing, have you determined who will come out the loser in this process? In your opinion, who will come out on the losing end after the marketing model is changed? Can you tell me to what extent these individuals will be adversely impacted by the decision that will be made? You can't claim in a report that there will be loser without having examined this possibility. I for one would not make this kind of claim without first studying the situation.

11:30 a.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Howard Migie

Paul is going to address the question of the adjustment side on winners and losers.