Evidence of meeting #31 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Bannister  Vice-Chair, Tobacco Farmers In Crisis
Brian Edwards  President, Tobacco Farmers In Crisis
Fred Neukamm  Chair, Ontario Tobacco Board
Richard Van Maele  Vice Chair, Ontario Tobacco Board
Christian Boisjoly  Director, Office des producteurs de tabac jaune du Québec
Luc Hervieux  Vice-President, Office des producteurs de tabac jaune du Québec
James Rickard  Chair, Ontario Apple Growers
Brian Gilroy  Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

1 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Apple growers in Quebec have already spoken to me about a strategy for replanting. It was developed in the hope of producing a greater variety of apples, which is something consumers want. Would this strategy allow you to add varieties of apples to those we already have? If not, would it be used to replace some varieties of apples that we have at the moment?

I would also like to know how much it would cost all apple growers in Canada to make these changes? What exactly are you asking the government to do? I have seen this strategy a few times, but I would like you to explain the details of the replanting strategy to committee members. I would like to know how much it could produce and how much it might cost to implement it.

1 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

Do we have the numbers with us for Canada?

Sorry, this is Amy Argentino, who is with the Canadian Horticultural Council. There is the Apple Working Group, which originally developed the proposal and--

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

If you don't have them with you today, Brian, you could certainly send them in, and we'll incorporate them in rather than--

1 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

I believe I have the numbers here.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Great. Even better.

1:05 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

The goal is to increase the Canadian farm gate value of the apple crop from $123 million, which it currently is today, to $200 million over ten years.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Is that across Canada or just--

1:05 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

That's across Canada. In Ontario we're about 40% of the apple production. The rest of these numbers are Ontario numbers.

I do have it here: $84 million would be the two levels of government, so that split in half would be $42 million federal and $42 million provincial, which--

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

It's actually 60-40, not 50-50, but that's close enough.

1:05 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

The request for the national replant program is one-third grower, one-third national, one-third federal. They're provincial.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Yes.

1:05 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

We should add that there has been a significant replant program in British Columbia and Nova Scotia. British Columbia's program has been running for about 15 years and the Nova Scotia program for probably four or five years. The Nova Scotia program was very variety-specific.

I will make sure we get those statistics to you, as to what the overall cost would be. It is to plant varieties that are more profitable. The whole goal of this exercise is to increase the profitability.

Apple growers have had a really difficult time meeting their cash cost to production. You need cash cost to production plus a reasonable profit if you're to stay in business for any length of time.

As I've said, our grower numbers are down. Acreage is down and the equity that farmers/growers have in their operations is down as well. That's one of the big reasons we're coming to the levels of government with this three-phase approach.

In British Columbia, more than 50% of their acreage has been replanted. They had the challenge that they are also.... They don't over-produce in their province, necessarily, but close to it. They produce almost as much as they consume. They depend heavily on an export market to the Far East. With some of the political changes that are taking place over there, it's hurt them as well.

If we go back as far as 1999, there was a huge crop of apples. Growers lost, on average, around 6¢ a pound for every pound of apples they grew.

I grow, on average, a million pounds of apples. I'm a small to medium-sized grower, but that was a significant hit for me. That's a hole you find yourself in. In terms of the 2004 crop, dumping took place. We investigated whether an anti-dumping action should take place on Washington State apples. There was a ruling on grain corn that year that made us back off. They had better statistics than we did for grain corn, and they still lost their case.

Amy has handed me some information. The overall investment for the seven-year program was $300 million total: $100 million federal; $100 million provincial; $100 million grower.

I gave you some bad statistics a moment ago.

1:05 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

James Rickard

Mr. Steckle asked some questions in terms of what we are doing and what you could do.

We've developed a relationship with the marketers. We meet quarterly and semi-annually with marketing, with the people who pack the apples in the bags. We work together on promotion, access some core funding, and we can advance funding to promote that.

We're starting to develop a relationship with the retailers, the Sobeys, the A&Ps, and the Loblaws. In fact, this past fall we financially contributed to some pages to promote apples, which is something, because right now clementines are kind of taking everybody's attention.

We're addressing the consumers at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair. We're a part of that Foodland thing.

A policy to promote “buy Ontario”, “buy Canadian”--we're talking two levels of government here--would be very nice. Lip service would perhaps be even nicer. My belief is that most Canadians...when we start out to buy, we probably don't have a problem thinking we'd like to buy Canadian food, until we get to the store and the promotion drags us aside, or the pricing drags us aside. I'm afraid we have to match the pricing.

Honey Crisp--you heard about the returns to the farmer, and that's because the pricing at the store is up. It doesn't matter whether they're Ontario, Nova Scotia, or Washington Honey Crisp, they're up there. So if we can produce it, why should we have to import it? You walk into the store and the flag is important. “Foodland Ontario” is a good logo.

Those are five things: retailers, marketers, consumers, a national buy Canadian policy, and lip service. None of what we say matters, but if we keep saying it often enough, they'll start believing us. And that's what the marketing board is saying: buy the food your neighbours grow.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gerry Ritz

Thank you, Mr. Bellavance.

Mr. Miller for seven minutes, please.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thank you very much.

Thanks for coming, fellows.

Brian, thanks for bringing those apples from my riding. They taste just about as good as Grey County beef, which is the best in the country.

My first question is on your replant strategy. I just want to learn a little bit about it. What I've gathered so far is that it's a third-third-third split. That's what you're planning. Plus, over the seven years, it looks like about a $13 million to $14 million commitment from the federal government and the province per year.

1:10 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

We're anticipating that the uptake in moneys won't be very high in the first year as nurseries and tree suppliers ramp up for it. In the second and third, and probably into the fourth year, we anticipate a higher percentage of the funds being required.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

That would be the average anyway.

I'd like to have you talk a little bit about the Nova Scotia tree plant, and I think you mentioned the one in British Columbia as well. Was there federal government involvement there in any way when they went through?

1:10 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

There hasn't been. It's been strictly provincial. The Nova Scotia plant was specific to variety. For the first five years of its existence I think it focused on the Northern Spy apple, which is mostly a processing apple. That was to provide apples to their apple pie plants in Nova Scotia. Until then, a very high percentage of those apples came from Ontario.

In B.C., they have a number of advantages. They have a council that looks at varietal development. The Ambrosia apple, which some of you have had a chance to sample here, was developed in B.C., at Summerland Nursery, which is a federal organization. So they have had support in their program, but indirectly from the federal government, for variety development and some market development as well, I believe.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Is that Ambrosia apple that you talk about an apple that can be grown in Ontario and Quebec? Would it do as well in those provinces as it does in British Columbia?

1:10 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

James Rickard

Certainly. It's actually an Ontario–Quebec climate-adapted apple.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

I ask that for a specific reason, because if we're trying to make something work in an area not suited to it, that's not good, so I'm glad to hear that.

Let's go back to the Washington apples and so many of them coming in here. Are there certain kinds of apples that they are producing that we can't, with consumers wanting them, or can we pretty well grow anything here that they can? Do they have a leg up on us in any way that way?

1:10 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

James Rickard

Where's the Granny Smith line and where's the Braeburn line? And I mean the climate line. Granny Smith is a southern apple, but I don't know whether it's California or Washington. They do a better job on Red Delicious than eastern Ontario does.

1:15 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

Red and Golden Delicious are still their number one exported apples into Ontario, but they've also been big with Gala. Gala was another apple that showed promise to maintain a higher price point for producers, but Washington state can grow it very well, and that price point has come down because of the huge volumes they've started to produce.

One of the good things is that with Ambrosia, because it was developed in B.C. and they knew the potential of the monster beneath them, they have restricted the planting of the Ambrosia apple in the U.S. to 500 acres. That acreage has already been planted, and the rest they're saving for Canada itself. The Honey Crisp apple looks all right from Washington State, but it doesn't have the taste. It's meant for a colder climate like the one we have here.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Is there any specific apple that we can grow well here in Canada that they are, in your opinion, sending in here unfairly to distort our market? For example, Mac is my favourite, and I hope you never quit growing it. Is there any specific one that they're sending in here that maybe they shouldn't be in a right world?

1:15 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Apple Growers

Brian Gilroy

The Gala apple is the most recent example of one, where they've taken an apple that used to be worth $40 a bushel at the retail level—so the grower would get $20 a bushel—and that came down two years ago by at least 30%. That's an example of an apple we grow well that they can grow well. But they've flooded our market, and the price has dropped significantly because of that.

But it's a question of like varieties too. We grow Red and Golden Delicious—not as well as they do out there, because when you grow in a desert you don't have to worry about disease pressure or insect pressure nearly as much—and on the Red and Golden Delicious they do a really good job.