Evidence of meeting #14 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was biofuels.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Steckle Liberal Huron—Bruce, ON
I'm just wondering if there's a differential between cellulose and grain.
10:20 a.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Yes, and cellulose is in that 95% range, similar to biodiesel, so it in fact does have an even increased benefit over time.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
10:20 a.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Absolutely, and again--just give me 10 seconds further to answer your question.
The technology to make cellulosic ethanol is ready today. Again, to counter my friend from the National Farmers Union who suggests that the technology isn't ready, of course it's ready today, and there are multiple Canadian companies--GreenField Ethanol, Iogen Corporation, and Lignol in western Canada--who have all proven that the technology works.
The issue today is simply scaling it up to the commercial level, and that's the work that thankfully the government has seen the benefit of creating, the $500 million program at Technology Partnerships Canada, which again will help incent that next phase of commercialization. The technology works; now we're just talking about scaling it up.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Thank you.
Actually, we're now into five-minute rounds. I should have mentioned that to Mr. Steckle, kicking off the second round. We are into a five-minute question and answer period.
Mr. Storseth, you're up next.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to start out by talking to Mr. Phillips a little bit about his five points, the five reasons he thought this was such an important issue. The first one was to reduce some of the dependency on foreign markets. To what extent do you foresee this happening?
10:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
About two-thirds of what we produce in western Canada is exported out by rail right now. Every bushel that goes into ethanol could arguably be one less bushel we have to export. The larger we grow it.... I don't have the exact number; we can maybe see the numbers we're going to have, but every bushel we take out is one less bushel on which we pay the rail freight to port position.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
We'll get to the numbers in just a second.
You led into the issue that I wanted to bring up, and that's reducing transportation costs to our farmers--not just costs, but also headaches.
As you know, Bill C-8 is a fairly comprehensive bill, one that faces a long and arduous task in the Liberal-dominated Senate. We need to do something for our producers in western Canada that significantly helps them to turn their costs downward on things like transportation and input. In my area anyway--the Westlock and St. Paul area--this is one of the areas that would significantly....
Anyway, could we get the numbers now, Mr. Chorney, that you were...?
10:25 a.m.
Vice-President, Canadian Canola Growers Association
From the canola side of things, we'll go to the 5% renewable fuel standard for the diesel fuel pool. We're looking at between 2 million and 2.5 million metric tons.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Mr. Sigurdson, you're from the NFU. It's a little different for me to hear Mr. Easter not agree with the NFU totally on something, so it takes me a couple of minutes to get used to that.
10:25 a.m.
Researcher, National Farmers Union
Yes, we've got...[Inaudible--Editor]
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
I'm sure you'll get him onside eventually.
Do you not agree that these 16 to 20 local ethanol plants will create jobs in rural Canada?
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
10:25 a.m.
Researcher, National Farmers Union
Yes, if you're going to pay $1 million to $3 million a job.
Do the math. In Manitoba, an ethanol plant employing.... It was in my presentation. The new Husky plant at Minnedosa, for example, provided 11 jobs in addition to what was there before, so those costs in terms of subsidies come at $3.3 million per job per year.
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Biox Corporation
I have to refute this. As a producer of biodiesel right now--
10:25 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Biox Corporation
I don't have anybody working at the shift level who's making a million dollars a year.
10:25 a.m.
A voice
Let me try to answer that question.
10:25 a.m.
Researcher, National Farmers Union
I was asked the question and I want to clarify it, because I made it in my presentation.
On the cost of jobs, the Manitoba government's information indicates an 80-million-litre ethanol plant will employ 30 to 35 people, while a 160-million-litre ethanol plant may employ 40 to 50 people. With a subsidy of $30 a litre of ethanol manufactured, the subsidy for a job will range from $680,000 to $1.2 million per job per year. At the Husky ethanol plant in Minnedosa, 11 new jobs were created, costing $3.3 million a job per year.
I went on to say that.... The argument is they'd provide some economic activity, but I would argue that little economic activity takes place there. The grain is hauled in; the distiller's grain and the alcohol are hauled out by tanker.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
You've already had that put on the record. It's in the blues. It's going to be part of the Minutes of Proceedings.
Mr. Quaiattini wants to respond.
10:25 a.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
First of all, I'm not sure where my friend gets his statistics. This industry certainly isn't getting $30-a-litre support from government. The federal program will provide 10¢ a litre of support, at most, on the ethanol side and up to 20¢ a litre on the biodiesel side. That's a $1.5 billion program, which is, as I said on the record earlier, $600 million of economic activity on an annual basis being leveraged from a one-time commitment of $1.5 billion by the federal government.
Let me give you some comparisons. Hibernia had $3 billion of government support. I'm not criticizing this level of support either; it's just for comparison purposes. There was $3 billion for Hibernia, $14 billion of government support to Darlington for the nuclear facility that was built, and collectively to the oil sands--and again, I'm not making a judgment call--there was upwards of $44 billion of government support. The ethanol and biodiesel industry in Canada is getting $1.5 billion of support.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
I think we all agree, and the NFU agrees, that this will create jobs in rural Canada. This will reduce transportation costs in rural Canada. This is a good thing for farmers in rural Canada. I don't know who you represent, Mr. Sigurdson. You're supposed to be for the National Farmers Union.