Agriculture Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The motion reads:

That the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food undertake a study into the activities of Corrections Canada's prison farm operations; and that the committee travel at least to the facilities located in Kingston, Ontario, in order to hear testimony from those involved in the operation of the facilities from across the country; that the study's conclusions and recommendations be reported back to the House; and that the committee comment on the government's attitude toward the farming community as reflected in the statements by the Minister of Public Safety.

Let me start with the comments from the Minister of Public Safety, because while the government members on the other side argued earlier that I was filibustering, the fact is that I was not. If you're going to bring young people into the industry, you have to have a government that shows it cares about the farming community. If there was ever a statement by the minister of the crown that shows that the government doesn't care, it was the statement made by Peter Van Loan when he was trying to defend himself against the closing of prison farms across the country. Why that's important to this committee is that about 300 farms in the Kingston area depend on that farm. I've been there. It's efficient; it's productive.

But Minister Van Loan had this to say about prison farms and inmates who work and learn on prison farms:

We felt that money could be more adequately redirected to programs where people would actually gain employable skills, as virtually nobody who went through those prison farms ended up with employable skills, because they were based on a model of how agriculture was done 50 years ago, when it was labour intensive, and not capital intensive, as it is today.

What Minister Van Loan has clearly shown is really the government's attitude towards the farming community in general and its condescending attitude that shows through. The fact of the matter is that I've been on that prison farm; in fact, I was in charge of it as Solicitor General. I know it makes money and I do know the abattoir on that farm provides services to 150 farms in the area and close to 300 businesses. The farm has one of the most highly productive herds—it's called the pen farm dairy herd. If the farm is sold out from under the prison farm system, we will lose one of the top producing herds in the country, genetics that go back to 1942, genetics that win prizes at shows across the country. And the government wants to close it down.

I think the motion is important from the point of view that it shows the government attitude.

The other point that I guess I might as well make is that while the minister said they're losing $4 million—which they're not, but that's nothing new from this government, because it's all about messaging; it doesn't matter if it's true—Corrections Canada, in response to an order paper question from me, did not reference the $4 million annual loses that the minister has referenced without providing any evidence to support that claim. I believe it's another case that this government has become extremely good at, which is about messaging, whether it's factual or not.

Corrections Canada, in its response to the order paper question I presented, stated:

Alongside farming skills attained by those participating in the program, offenders also gain employability skills such as responsibility, teamwork, accountability and punctuality.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Chair, I have a point of order. Just before the witnesses feel this might go on to 5:30 and might think they should leave, I want to make the offer that certainly we on this side of the table would like to hear from our witnesses. We are willing to stay an extra hour to listen to our witnesses at the end of this meeting. I thought they should hear that before they slip away.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

The meeting is going to be over at 5:30—

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Well, I'm making the offer, Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

No, you have already made a motion that we do this business, so we're doing this business, so I don't know what you're trying to do here. I know what you're trying to do, but it's not going to—

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

All I'm trying to do, Chair, is move ahead efficaciously with committee business. We were blocked for an hour, but we're glad to stay and listen to witnesses if the concern is that the witnesses will not be heard.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

You know, Mr. Chair—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Just one second, Mr. Easter. Everybody in this room and this committee knows the meeting is going to 5:30. That's when the meeting is going to end. You made the decision that we're going to stick with the business and that's what we're going to do now.

Mr. Easter has the floor, and it's his motion.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I guess you guys aren't too sincere, are you?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Go ahead, Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I guess we are sincere, Mr. Hoback. We're very sincere. The meeting was supposed, as we said in the beginning, to start at 4:30 to hear witnesses.

[An hon. member]

You've been playing games all day, Wayne. You've been playing games with your witnesses. That's all you've done—play games. I'm tired of it.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I haven't played a game here.

Mr. Chair, back to the motion.

There's no sense in your trying to cover your butt now, because you caused the witnesses to have to go without being heard.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You've cost an hour of time, wasting our time. You keep it up.

[An hon. member]

It was your decision.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Back to the motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Mr. Easter, I'm sorry for the interruption. Go ahead.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The point is, Mr. Chair, as I said, that I was on that farm and saw that the people have learned teamwork and skills.

What really struck me most about the last time I was on that farm is how some of those inmates get up at 5:30 in the morning, really learn rehabilitative skills from working with cattle, and take great pride in the operation. As a number of them said to me, although they may not be employed in farming when they leave, it's the attitude they learned by working with cattle, with equipment, and with crops that has improved their personality or attitude so they'd be able to get out into the workforce and find a reliable job. In fact, there is one guy there from Summerside who said if it weren't for his being moved to this prison farm, he wouldn't have learned the computer skills he's learning now, and in three years when he gets out he thinks he'll be able to get a job in bookkeeping or accounting with those computer skills.

My point is, Mr. Chair—and I'll close at that, but there are a lot more points I could make—I really think the Minister of Public Safety in this country, with his remarks, has quite literally insulted any working farmer, not to mention those involved in agriculture generally. So that is why I have two points: one, we should go to visit the operation, because it shows how misguided the government is in terms of their closing down those farm operations; and two, with respect to the mandate of this committee, it's an operation that's productive and it's utilized by the farm community in the area. In fact, the main ones pushing for the prison farms not to close come from the farming community in the Kingston area, and we should support them in doing that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Mr. Easter.

I think Mr. Bezan has the floor now.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do want to speak against this motion.

Wayne, I have experience with prison farms because there is one in my riding. I do spend some time there talking to CORCAN, talking to inmates, talking to Correctional Services management.

There are a number of issues surrounding the prison farm in my riding. One is employability skills that the individuals are getting off the farm. There's no doubt they have had a great experience working on the prison farm. The prison farm in Stoney Mountain includes a very good dairy farm, and it used to have a hog operation, a 2,000-head feedlot, and an extensive grain farm. Unfortunately, the inmates coming out of there, when they go back into the public, are having difficulty finding employment. There are only so many jobs out there in the agriculture sector that they can apply for, and many of them want to return to their home communities where a farming job is not an option.

If we want to have a proper transition of inmates back into society, so they are productive participants in society, we have to give them employable jobs back in their home situations, where they'll have family support, where they can take pride in having a job and earning an income and not having to look at criminal ways to generate revenue.

I think it's important. I know from my discussions with CORCAN that they want to make sure these guys do have some marketable skills. They can pick up some of the things from a farm, like welding skills and things of that nature, but we need to do more in skilled trades and education and maybe changing the business way CORCAN operates. That's what they're looking at: how do they teach inmates on a prison farm like Stoney Mountain with more skills in heavy equipment operations, how do they get them doing more in fabricating, specific machining skills, and so on? That's where they're headed.

I think we have to support that because it's about making sure the inmates, when they go back into society, have skills they can offer to their local community. That's the big reason for doing this. It has nothing to do with what Mr. Easter has been alluding to. I think all of us have seen the benefit of the prison farms in our communities, although with respect to Stoney Mountain, the surrounding area is changing as well. One reason they don't have a hog operation anymore is because of the nuisance of odour and flies and everything else that's associated with that, when the town borders the prison. It's the same thing with the dairy herd; it has been cut back, and the feedlot has been reduced almost in half because of the issue of nuisance odours and flies. So we have to be cognizant of the communities surrounding the prison farms as well.

For those reasons, I think we have to support the decision by CORCAN management at Correctional Services. I think we have to support them in knowing what's best for the inmates and getting them better established for returning into society.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

We'll now go to Madam Hughes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I support this motion. Having worked in the probation and parole services for about 13 years, I know how important it is to ensure that criminals coming out of jail have some skills. Over and over again, at both the provincial and federal levels, we have seen the difficulties they have in getting counselling, in getting proper support when they come out, and in getting proper skills while they're in.

These farm prisons have proven to be quite a benefit to society, not only to the criminals but also to the community. There are mechanical skills and welding skills; it's not just about farming. Even if they go to a city, some of these skills will benefit them. If they're fairly young or have few skills, at least when they come out of prison they will be confident that they have learned something, that they can be productive in society. That's why we should not close these farm prisons.

I'm going to read a bit of what my colleague Alex Atamanenko would have liked to share with you. He believes that the objective of our prison system is to enhance public security and to increase the inmates' chances of a positive return to Canadian society, and he thinks it would be hard to imagine a better way to achieve both of these outcomes than through farm prisons. Many of the mechanical skills learned in these programs, such as welding and equipment operating, are readily translated into other livelihoods, such as construction and road building. Most important for the inmates is the opportunity to be involved in meaningful work, which can only bring value to their lives and enhance their chances of rehabilitation. In light of the growing demand for leadership on food security and food sovereignty issues and concerns about the future of farmland, Mr. Atamanenko considers it incomprehensible to contemplate closing the farm prisons.

I agree with my colleague, and that's why I believe it is important to keep these farm prisons active. We should not be looking at destroying them but at building more. It's important to do this, and I'm supporting this motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Ms. Hughes.

Now to the Bloc, Mr. Bellavance.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note that the Conservative government is against anything and everything that deals with rehabilitation. That's why I am not surprised to see that they want to shut down prison farms. However, it seems to me that they should, like any other responsible government, try, at the very least, to make things right again, if possible. In this world, nothing is perfect.

Before arriving at the conclusion that these farms should be shut down, there could have been an attempt to make the necessary improvements. But rehabilitation simply isn't part of the genetic makeup or ideology of this government which, on the contrary, has an ideology similar to that of the Republicans in the United States. It is clear that, in their case, the results are not particularly convincing. It would be very much in their interest to look at the exceptional rehabilitation rate in Quebec, in particular. Criminals must be severely punished; that is clear. However, rather than keeping them in prison or imposing the death penalty, as is the case in some U.S. states, I think they should be reintegrated into society, where possible, and become productive members of society.

There is no prison farm in my riding, but there is a farm school. Problem students go there to learn about work on the farm. There are all kinds of animals. Doing that work does not necessarily mean these young people will end up working in the farm industry later on, but it does give them an opportunity to learn discipline. On the farm, schedules are very important in terms of caring for the animals. Caring for animals is a tremendous responsibility. And a farm is an exceptional place to learn that kind of discipline. The young people there have no choice: they are working with living beings, with nature and they have to come to terms with all of that. The results are very rewarding.

As a member of this Committee, I would like to visit a prison farm, as the motion proposes, to see with my own eyes what goes on there. I have no doubt that people will talk about improvements that should be made. I am in favour of the idea of our looking at this, but before we shut them all down and throw the baby out with the bath water, I think we should take our responsibilities and go and see what goes on at these prison farms.

So, I support this motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Mr. Bellavance.

We're going to go to Mr. Lemieux.