Evidence of meeting #11 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agriculture.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marion Wrobel  Director, Market and Regulatory Developments, Canadian Bankers Association
David Rinneard  National Manager, Agriculture, BMO Bank of Montreal, Canadian Bankers Association
Darryl Worsley  Director, Agriculture Segment Business Banking, CIBC, Canadian Bankers Association
Gwen Paddock  National Manager, Agriculture and Agribusiness, RBC Royal Bank of Canada, Canadian Bankers Association
Bertrand Montel  Senior Advisor, Agribusiness and Agrifood Sector, National Bank of Canada, Canadian Bankers Association
Jon Curran  Manager, Agriculture Credit Products, TD Canada Trust, Canadian Bankers Association
Bob Funk  Vice-President and Director, Agricultural Services, Scotiabank, Canadian Bankers Association

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I call our meeting to order.

Before we go to our witnesses, we just have a bit of housekeeping to do.

This is to deal with our travel, which is starting next week. The original travel request didn't have all the locations on it. This is simply about the logistics. We didn't have the exact places to travel to in the east, and those are now all on there.

Wayne and Mark, I understand you guys had a lot of input into this.

Basically, there's a liaison committee meeting tomorrow at 1 o'clock, and if we don't deal with this today, then obviously we can't travel to those spots.

I'd entertain a motion to adopt this. It's for a total amount of $86,969.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I so move, Mr. Chair.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Is there any discussion?

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you.

We'll now move to our witnesses.

Thank you very much, all of you, for being here today.

I don't know, Mr. Wrobel, whether all the banks are going to have a presentation, or are you just going to do one?

3:30 p.m.

Marion Wrobel Director, Market and Regulatory Developments, Canadian Bankers Association

No, Mr. Chair, I'm going to read some opening remarks. And we are here to answer your questions.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Very good. We're looking forward to it.

I'll mention in advance that I have to leave at about 4:30. Vice-Chair Mr. Eyking will be filling in. My apologies; there's just something that I have to deal with.

At any rate, go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Director, Market and Regulatory Developments, Canadian Bankers Association

Marion Wrobel

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On behalf of the Canadian Bankers Association, its 51 members, and its 500,000 employees in Canada, I would like to thank you very much for the invitation to speak to the committee on the subject of young farmers and the future of farming.

My members are here to answer your specific questions, so I will keep my comments brief. I will, however, take a moment at the outset to put the banking industry and its association with young farmers in the wider agricultural and rural community into some perspective.

The banking industry believes young farmers are an important part of the agricultural and rural community success story. Indeed, we are seeing a resurgence of interest in agriculture from the younger generation of farmers. While bright and determined, these younger farmers need more support and advice than do experienced producers. At the same time, both the new and older generations of producers need to recognize the new reality of agriculture, wherein they might be part of global supply chains and need to hedge international risks.

Through our roughly 2,100 rural and smalltown branches, we supply the tools, advice, and support to help them, their families, and their communities. These include one-on-one interactions around business plans, as well as ongoing business seminars at which banks provide access to expert business speakers. On the business side, banks provide deposit and operating accounts, insurance investments, and financial advice, as well as operating term and mortgage loans. I will elaborate on a couple of these products in a moment.

Banks also work with producers on succession planning to ensure a viable transition to future generations of farmers. Indeed, the industry is developing customized products for succession and transfer of ownership.

On the personal side, we help rural customers save for their children's education and their own retirement through GICs, stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. Banks provide specialized advice, lines of credit, loans, mortgages, and everyday banking needs such as deposit and savings accounts. In short, customers in rural Canada have access to the same services and prices as do customers in Canada's largest cities.

Specifically for young farmers and those contemplating farming, we provide sponsorship and support through a number of local and national initiatives. Indeed, my members would be happy to discuss their support for Outstanding Young Farmer programs, 4-H Clubs, and university programs to support agricultural youth in entrepreneurship, farm succession seminars, networking opportunities, scholarships, and the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair.

Our bankers understand the importance of access to credit for any farmer, and particularly for young farmers just starting out. Our lending decisions are based on an assessment of the borrower's ability to repay the loan. We make decisions on an individual case-by-case basis, but it should be realized that those decisions are balanced with more macro-conditions, such as the prospects for the business sector the borrower operates in, economic prospects in general, the cost to the bank of raising funds, etc.

In light of these considerations, what have been the results? About 18% of the total funds lent to SMEs by banks across the country are dedicated to the agricultural sector. That's almost one dollar in five, and it reflects the long-standing commitment of banks to this sector. Throughout the period of global financial turmoil, Canadian banks continued to provide financing to their agricultural clients. From the first quarter of 2008 to the end of 2009, the amount of credit we made available to the agricultural sector went up every quarter and increased by a total of more than 7%. Over the longer term, and consistent with our focus on prudent and responsible lending, bank credit has expanded in line with the agricultural sector's growth. Between 2001 and 2008, the provision of bank credit has been consistent with and appropriate for growth in this sector, and this largely reflects the fact that most of bank lending is for the purposes of working capital.

Canadian banks utilize the same prudent lending practices and excellent risk management systems in agricultural lending as they do in every other line of business. These practices and systems have led to a banking system that is today internationally recognized for its safety and soundness. As the experiences in other jurisdictions show, poor risk management is not just bad for lenders, but bad for borrowers as well; its negative effects extend into rural communities generally, and even into the broader economy.

The agricultural community has access to a highly competitive financial marketplace. Banks, credit unions and caisses populaires, Farm Credit Canada, finance companies, provincial government agencies--all compete to provide credit to the sector. About 70% of lending comes from private sector institutions, and banks provided 38% of total farm credit in 2008.

Also important is the nature of the financing that banks provide. Two-thirds of bank lending to the sector is non-mortgage credit, working capital, and operating lines of credit, making banks the largest providers of this type of credit with $14.7 billion outstanding in 2008. This type of financing is more complex than lending against assets, so it requires the bank to truly understand its customers and to work closely with them over time.

Governments also play an important role in the agricultural sector, and banks are important partners with government. Sometimes we are the conduit by which programs are delivered. Sometimes we provide expert advice with respect to some of the key features in the design of new programs. Recently, the industry has been consulted early in the process of program design, has provided financial and business expertise, and has implemented agriculture-specific government programs. All of this has worked to the benefit of producers, lenders, and the government.

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Banks participated in the evaluation of FIMCLA, and were instrumental in successfully rolling out CALA this past summer on very tight timelines. CALA is a program that assists young farmers. Since it was passed last June, banks have increased the volume of lending by 61% and the number of CALA loans by 35% when compared to FIMCLA.

Banks provided expertise to government officials who were designing the hog industry loan loss reserve program--HILLRP--to assist struggling hog farmers. The CBA and member banks were in regular communication with government officials, stakeholders, and/or customers on this program both during its creation and its implementation. We started speaking to our customers about government assistance to hog farmers even before completing program development. These actions resulted in banks accounting for almost half the volume of HILLRP loans made.

These agricultural initiatives are in addition to our work with the government on a broader range of credit initiatives such as BCAP, business credit availability program. We look forward to continuing this positive relationship with government.

The one overarching theme related to our support for young farmers, their families in rural communities, and our work with the government and stakeholders is the importance we place on building and maintaining relationships. Banking is about more than simply lending money. It's about relationships, and nowhere is this more evident than in the agricultural sector.

These relationships have helped us work with our customers through the inevitable peaks and troughs that come with working with this sector. The past decade has seen farmers confront BSE, avian influenza, drought, floods, H1N1 virus, and country-of-origin labelling. When these inevitable events occur, we work with farmers, taking into account their individual situations to find solutions that are sustainable and in their best interests. Sometimes banks need to have tough conversations with their clients, so that farmers can make decisions that preserve the capital of the farming operation. The banking industry's work during these events is testament to the importance we give to the sector and our interest in contributing to its long-term viability.

On this point, I'd like to refer to a survey of SMEs that the CBA conducted during the height of the financial crisis. Let me just point out that these were SMEs in general, not just agricultural producers. Eighty-nine percent of SMEs who approach their bank about their credit needs said their bank was willing to work with them. This does not happen without a strong bank-client relationship.

The key to the strong relationships we have with farmers is understanding the circumstances. Banks hire individuals with a P.Ag. designation and university graduates with an understanding of the agricultural sector. These individuals are account managers and specialists who advise farmers on such matters as farm loans, economic forecasting, farm business planning, and general farm management. They serve their clients through non-traditional means and modern technology. They employ cars and laptops to meet with clients at their farm in order for them to spend more time on their businesses and with their family. Banks dedicate resources to educate them through programs such as the Olds College bankers school. These account managers and specialists often move up to agriculture specific credit and risk adjudication positions.

In short, bankers live and work in rural communities and have the skills needed to support their agricultural clients. They donate both their business resources and considerable personal time to supporting local agricultural associations, clubs, and events. We have a stake in seeing farmers in rural communities thrive.

Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you on your study. I've kept my opening remarks short to enable my members to elaborate on issues I have raised here and on specific initiatives for the agricultural sector, particularly young farmers.

We would be pleased to answer any questions you have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Wrobel.

We'll now go to Mr. Easter for questioning, for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank you folks for coming in.

I guess the key to being able to get young people to enter into the industry is profitability at the farm gate. That's the key. Part of it--we always hear the line—is that you have to be competitive. Yes, you do, but our problem seems to be that in Canada we don't have competitive policy. The government last year, in the worst hog crisis we've had in Canadian history, with the beef industry not far behind, with all kinds of troubles in the potato industry, actually paid out pretty near $900 million less under the safety net programs.

I'm wondering about your discussions with the government, in terms especially of the hog program and the beef program. We've heard consistently from farmers that what they want done with AgriStability is to change the trigger mechanism and do away with the viability test—in other words, go to a different formula than one taking your low year and high year out and then averaging the difference—which denies about two-thirds of Ontario farmers access to the program in the beef industry.

Secondly, they've suggested that the government change the reference margins to allow a payout, because the money in the safety net program paid out by the government was, as I said, $900 million less last year and was a further shortfall from the year before. That's money that would meet the trade agreements that could have gone into farmers' accounts to assist them.

Has the government discussed any of those proposals with you? They are coming from the hog and beef sector.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Market and Regulatory Developments, Canadian Bankers Association

Marion Wrobel

Our focus over the last year or two has been on, for example, the design and implementation of the CALA and the design and implementation of the HILLRP. We are in the process of putting in place the AgriInvest accounts. That's been a focus of our discussions with officials.

Mr. Chair, in terms of some of the points that Mr. Easter raised, I would say that our job is to work with government to make sure that the policies and programs they put in place are as effective as possible. That's what we try to do--make them work and ensure that the policy objectives are met, to the extent that we're involved in those programs. If there are elements of those programs that make it difficult for them to be viable, we will deal with government, but the design of programs as such is a matter for government.

I don't know whether any of my members want to comment on that.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

That's okay. I understand where you're coming from. I just make the point that if the government would have used the safety net programs instead of entrenching their position, if they would have used the safety net programs, to actually design them—still within the rules—to actually get from $900 million to maybe $1.23 billion out there, I think it would have substantially enhanced the bottom line of farmers in both the hog and the beef industry. Then maybe some of those farmers...

As I understand the HILLRP program from talking to hog producers, when they go in to see you, quite a few of them don't meet the viability test within your operations, which is different from the viability test under AgriStability. In any event, they're not considered viable operations. Whereas the year before a hog barn might have been valued at $800,000, you now, within the banking system, value it at considerably less.

One of the complaints we have heard—and you can answer this—on banks' performance with the HILLRP program is that you have increased the interest rate substantially. Some are telling me it's by up to 5% and 6% over normal—prime plus 5% or 6%.

Is that the case, or have we been fed a lie?

3:45 p.m.

Director, Market and Regulatory Developments, Canadian Bankers Association

Marion Wrobel

Well, I'll leave that for any of my members who might want to address that.

I do want to make one statistic public. Of all of the applications to my member banks under the HILLRP, there has been a total of seven refusals. That's a very low number.

On the interest rate, I'd like to ask one of my members to answer that.

David?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

In the interest of time, could each bank just answer yes or no to the question?

3:45 p.m.

A voice

Sure. What is the specific question?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

The specific question is on the concern from the...

I'll run out of time here, and then I'll give you the question, I'm sure.

I just want to give you a compliment in one area. My office has been dealing with one heck of a lot of farmers in financial distress, some being sold out. When it comes to trying to do a deal with a series of lenders, banks are willing to do a deal; Farm Credit is damn near impossible. It's just damn near impossible to do a deal with Farm Credit, because they won't write down principal, whereas the banks will.

So I congratulate you in that area, and I would ask you, in that area, about Farm Credit. They're supposed to be a last-risk lender. What I'm hearing from bankers is that they're going to the greater ability to pay back loans and are not into the high-risk lending they used to do. That burden is falling, to a great extent, on you. I see it in the cases I deal with. So I congratulate you in that area.

The question, for the yes or no that Larry asked for, is on the HILLRP loan. We have farmers informing us that when they go into the bank, in cases in which the interest rate might have been prime plus 2% before, they're saying, okay, we'll lend you the money, but we want prime plus 6%, prime plus 5%.

April 21st, 2010 / 3:45 p.m.

David Rinneard National Manager, Agriculture, BMO Bank of Montreal, Canadian Bankers Association

My response to that is that we have not, to the best of my knowledge, engaged in policy like that. Our pricing for HILLRP has been consistently about prime plus 2% to 4%, I suspect.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Darryl.

3:45 p.m.

Darryl Worsley Director, Agriculture Segment Business Banking, CIBC, Canadian Bankers Association

No. It's priced on a case-by-case client basis, and it would not be in that range.

3:45 p.m.

Gwen Paddock National Manager, Agriculture and Agribusiness, RBC Royal Bank of Canada, Canadian Bankers Association

And at Royal Bank, we have no specific or different pricing for HILLRP loans; they're priced in accordance with the rest of our agriculture portfolio.

3:45 p.m.

Bertrand Montel Senior Advisor, Agribusiness and Agrifood Sector, National Bank of Canada, Canadian Bankers Association

The National Bank does not have any specific interest rate policy based on the usual rate grid related to each client's level of risk.

3:45 p.m.

Jon Curran Manager, Agriculture Credit Products, TD Canada Trust, Canadian Bankers Association

For TD Bank, they're all priced between prime plus 2% to prime plus 3%.

3:50 p.m.

Bob Funk Vice-President and Director, Agricultural Services, Scotiabank, Canadian Bankers Association

I would echo that. We don't have any that would be priced 5% higher than they were before.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You're out of time, Wayne.

Ms. Bonsant, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Considering what is happening with this government, there will be a new piece of legislation on mortgage rates next Monday. People will have to make a down payment equal to 20% of the purchase price of the property. How are you going to implement that knowing that some farms maybe worth 1.2 or $1.5 million? Will you also demand a 20% down payment in those cases or will you be more flexible?

Some young farmers who appeared before the committee last December told us that capital is required to enter this business. What would be your new policy relating to the 20% down payment with those young persons who want to start in agriculture?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Advisor, Agribusiness and Agrifood Sector, National Bank of Canada, Canadian Bankers Association

Bertrand Montel

I will start with this question. If you are talking about someone wanting to start in agriculture without any other support, there are some rules that we follow. Usually, we work with young farmers early on in order to help them build their funding structure. Our portfolio is mainly in Quebec where there are various avenues to build funding structures allowing young people to start in this business. Naturally, in some cases, the cost of capital is very high and they do not have enough cash to make this down payment. On the other hand, there are several public programs that have been set up by cooperatives in order to help young farmers start their operations.

In the case of a farm being transferred by parents, it is possible to use the current net value of the farm to fund the young successor.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Earlier, Mr. Easter asked you what is your preferred rate for farmers. You answered that it is the preferred rate plus 2% but you added that it depends on each case, based on the profitability of the farm. These days, not too many farms in Quebec are profitable, whether they be hog operations or something else. One only has to think also of what happened with the mad cow disease. The whole of Canada was penalized because of a cow in Alberta.

As far as I am concerned, you are the only one telling the truth. Is it really on a case-by-case basis? In the case of a hog operation, it is the preferred rate plus 5, 6, 7 or 8%. In the case of a profitable farming business that has been in operation for four or five generations, it is the preferred rate plus 2%.

I would like to know what is the real situation relating to loans for farmers.