Agriculture Committee on April 26th, 2010

[Madeleine Van Roechoudt]

We need these programs as a backup, but we also need to get our profitability back. That goes to what Dave was speaking about before. If we restrict imports to at least the standards under which we're producing our own fruit, then at least we won't get the dumping and the below-cost sales. It might eliminate some of that.

Our industry sells apples to England, and England requires that we meet the standards of their own producers. There are certain chemicals that they restrict. If we want to sell into their market we can't use them, even if they're legal in Canada. I don't know what that means for you, but if we at least import things that meet the same standards of what we're producing, that would give us a little more.

[David Machial]

I know from working at my parent's packing house that we export a lot of our apples to Mexico, Taiwan, and even Dubai. All of these places have very specific restrictions if you want to sell products in their countries. I'm sure in Canada we have restrictions, but I'm not too familiar with them. It would really be nice if food coming into Canada met the same requirements as food grown in Canada. That's very important, and it could go a long way to helping us be more competitive and solving some of the longer-term issues in this industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Atamanenko, you have seven minutes.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thanks to all of you for being here.

A number of themes seem to crop up as we enter into these discussions and try to solve how we can get out of it. The bottom line is that if you folks had some income and you could make a living, then we wouldn't need all these programs. That's the bottom line.

I forget who mentioned it, but a $14,000 net income isn't really a livable income. How many of us would work for that?

Our policy for a number of years has been to try to open up more markets, to sign different agreements, including trade agreements and free trade agreements. All of the agricultural industry is involved in that, with the exception of supply management, where we have been able to protect it thanks to the credit of this government and others. And yet we're seeing...

I did a little tour across the country on behalf of my party, talking to people about the whole idea of a food policy and what we should be doing. One of the themes coming in was that trade agreements have really hurt us. Before NAFTA, for example, there used to be in-season tariffs so that when you produced apples you could get a fair price for them. Now we're being bombarded by Washington state apples, which come from a subsidized industry. As somebody mentioned, we've helped them get the water for that.

There's something not quite right that we have producers who are working hard but can't make money, and yet we sign agreements and allow other products to come into this country that often don't meet the same standards.

I know there's been some talk in the fruit industry of orderly marketing, of late, especially. Should we be looking at some method of orderly marketing or floor price for our fruit?

Also, in the cattle industry, in Country Life I read a little while ago some gentleman came out with his case for orderly marketing, even though this has been a taboo subject for the cattle people.

Is it time now to start thinking about something like that, just to save our industry?

I'll just leave it at that and get some comments, please.

[Doug Fossen]

Can I make one comment?

I agree, I think it is time to... I'm very appreciative of what the government has done for our family, that we're still here, but there's no way that we can make up for our lost income with programs.

I like the idea of bringing in some sort of marketing control, because when we market our calves in the fall, we bring a premium product to market. We do get a bit of a premium for that. It will be 5¢ to 10¢ a pound higher than what the low-end cattle will be.

At the last sale I was at, I saw some really poor-quality cattle. I sometimes wonder if we could just eliminate that end through a marketing board. A lot of the time it's small operators who just have a few animals. If we could control who comes in and our overall quality, that could also help our whole marketing situation.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

How about the fruit industry?

[David Dobernigg]

Am I the fruit industry?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[David Dobernigg]

Yes, it's definitely an idea. We recently started a Facebook page, “I support Okanagan tree fruit farmers”, and a lot of the discussion on that has been about a supply managed approach. For a lot of people who are connected to the industry and have concerns about the industry, it is on their tongues, it's something they're thinking about.

Certainly any investigation into something along those lines would be appreciated.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

I would say that this would have to be across the country if we were to institute something like this. I imagine there have been some consultations with other folks in other parts of the country in regard to this.

[David Dobernigg]

There is also the national apple working group. I did see Joe and Glen here, and they usually do participate in that. I believe supply management has been mentioned at that level as well, at that national level.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

What about the idea of a floor price? If you had just a bottom line, you could not sell your apples for less than so many cents a pound, how would that work?

[Madeleine Van Roechoudt]

My concern is that there has to be something for quality. You don't want just anything to make that; you still need some incentives to grow a quality product. So I think those would have to be in place for that type of floor pricing.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

I guess I still have a minute for a question for you folks.

The NFU came out with a report, and the Canadian Cattlemen's Association has a report. Is there anything in the NFU report, for example, and their recommendations that could work?

There has been some controversy. Some people are saying yes, and some people are saying no. On the ground, what is your reaction there?

[Doug Fossen]

The National Farmers Union report talked more about the packers consolidating and controlling the amount that they can pay for livestock. There's a lot of that I agree with.

I don't know if you want to comment, Ian.

[Ian Hutcheon]

The packers take only $200 out of that $3,080. I mean, I'm not a fan of the packers either--it's largely an American-dominated industry, and it's easy to find a bogeyman and think they're the bad guys--but when these numbers come out, they show that the packers are taking $199. It's very difficult to verify these numbers because of the way the beef supply chain works, but they can't be out that much.

I'd love to hang them out to dry, but these numbers have to be out by 300% or 400% before we can do that. It's the grocery stores. It's as simple as that. Canadians are paying at the counter, but that money is not going back to the producer.

If we were to go to supply management in this country, I might as well shoot all my cows now, because beef from Canada leaves this country. I don't know what the exact number is--I wish I had it at the tip of my fingers--but most of the beef we produce is an export product.

I have the benefit of a former life and an income that can let me travel, and I have other jobs that let me travel and that support my farming habit. I'll tell you, we make the best beef in the world, because I've eaten all of it everywhere. Only Argentina can even come close to competing. Now, you can buy beef from New Zealand; if you like eating old, tired dairy cow, have at 'er.

We have to promote our product. If we're going to increase or even sustain a beef industry in this country, it has to be supported on a bigger share of the local dollar going to the producer and the quality of that product. We produce a superior product, a far superior product. Unless we can get the same cost structure as our competitors...which we can't, because our land is more expensive, our drugs are more expensive, everything we do is far more expensive, not to mention the 7% carbon tax on a $10,000 fuel bill here.

We can't have it at both ends. We can't be getting taxed into the ground and getting no money back. It just does not work. It's going to kill... Well, I'm double Doug's age, and I don't see much of a future for young folks, unfortunately.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Just on that note about the percentage, the last time I looked at the numbers, we consumed about 46% or 47% of all the beef grown in Canada. The rest was exported. I might be out by 1% or 2%, but it's around there still.

Mr. Cannan, for seven minutes.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests.

I welcome all my colleagues. I sit on the human resources and international trade committees, but as the member of Parliament for Kelowna—Lake Country, it's an honour and a privilege to welcome my colleagues as well as our local young farmers and farmers of all ages, who help create the quality of life that we so take for granted.

I spent nine years on city council, and 43% of the land in Kelowna is in the agricultural land reserve. Many people treat it like their public park space. It's something that we have to realize is not going to be there forever if we don't manage it properly.

I know one of the realities that was raised—actually, they're discussing it today at city hall—is that some communities across the province have a local bylaw whereby you can have your own chickens in your backyard, creating a little controversy for the local homeowners.

But on a macro scale of farming as a profession, I agree that one of our biggest challenges is the land cost, as you alluded to, Madeleine, the fact that we're looking at the people who buy the property and then enjoy the beauty and lease it out. It's almost a subtenant perspective, and it isn't sustainable in that manner either.

I have a couple of questions specifically for you, to start. You talked about how there are limited programs for farmers. I know the province started a B.C. young farmers program a couple of years ago and tried to get some ideas for it. You mentioned $500,000 as the maximum guaranteed loan. What would you see as being more realistic, then, specifically for B.C. and the Okanagan farmers?

[Madeleine Van Roechoudt]

That just guarantees your loan. It doesn't say anything to the terms of the loan or the interest or provide you with a market to sell your product. I'm sure it might be helpful in some cases, but it's also not accessible to a larger farm. I'm not sure what the statistics are on what a viable size of a farm is, but I'm sure it's probably larger than five acres.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

In your research, if you come across any suggestions that you can put in a written submission later on, we're happy to take that information as well.

I also concur with my colleague Mr. Eyking. With regard to the marketing and branding, we had a successful brand in B.C., “buyBC”, which sort of waned off. They're trying to bring that back.

Minister Ritz came to Kelowna and the Okanagan in January and spoke with the BC Fruit Growers' Association. I'd like to thank Joe and Glen and his team for their hard work as well. We work closely with them when they come to Ottawa.

We do have the agricultural research centre in Summerland, in which we invested a few million dollars when Minister Ritz came here, in addition to the planned innovation company. It's doing some great research, I might add, to help look at ways in which we can move forward.

We are looking at two situations right now: one is the short-term crisis for the farmers, and the additional one is in the long term. How do you see the government's role in the short term versus the long term for a sustainable agricultural community?

That's to you or anybody else who wants to jump in from the farming community,

[David Machial]

In our industry, specifically in the short term, we need cash and we need it now. I know the BCFGA went to the province looking for $10 million just to help get us through this down time and we were denied. So what we need is liquidity and we need it fast.

In the long term there are some great ideas here. We need to push toward better branding. We need to try to create fair trade, and we need to improve upon the existing federal programs that support agriculture.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So there's partnership in the provinces and willing to bring cash... What is the next best to help? Would it be to lower your input costs? Any other suggestion?

[Doug Fossen]

With our use of crown land, sometimes just the ability to do small projects can really help us out--permission to clear fence lines, and have thinning programs done. We seem to have to get a permit in B.C. to do all sorts of things. For example, our ranch has had cattle on it since 1898, and a highway goes through the centre of it. Now we're told that we're supposed to have a permit to chase cows across that highway. Cows have been crossing it since it started. It's just little things like that.

We have time to do work and we don't mind doing that, but I don't really have time to do more paperwork.

The other day I asked if it was all right if I shot some crows. I asked if you are allowed to shoot crows or ravens if they are pestering your calves during calving time. The answer I got back from our agriculture person was that there was no bag limit on crows; you're allowed to shoot crows, but you need a permit to shoot ravens.

So I can't tell the difference anymore between crows and ravens.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Doug Fossen]

It's the same if I go to cut rails to build a fence; they'll give you a permit to cut rails, but then they say they have to be bent and crooked rails, or from dead trees. Well, in the end you just do what you have to do.

Little changes like that could make our life a little bit easier, as well as getting the general public to like ranching and not be quite so quick to bash what we do in agriculture.

I'm sure it's the same with the fruit growers. When somebody drives by and sees somebody spraying trees, it's “Oh, what are they spraying?”

Well, you are living in an agricultural background: maybe some support, saying things like, “Back off from that cattle liner, because you might get some manure on your window” might help us deal with ranching in these more and more condensed areas.