Agriculture Committee on May 5th, 2010

[Mike Nowosad]

In terms of the first question, Wayne, with respect to what the Government of Canada can do for the Canadian 4-H Council, the last contribution grant, which we signed in October, showed a 30% increase in funding. That was an excellent way to support our programs. I think it's important to maintain the continued support of the Government of Canada.

One thing we hadn't mentioned to you is that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada is a founding member of the Canadian 4-H Council. We've been partners in that regard for a very long time.

I'm going to flip it over to Ashley and Gillian to talk a little about what you can do in terms of financing. But with respect to recruiting or creating more of an awareness for agriculture, especially in urban areas, my sense would be that the 4-H and Agriculture have mutual objectives. There's no doubt about that.

In partnership with the Government of Canada, we want to introduce new methods of communication with young people in the language they speak, which is electronically. If you go to fall fairs these days and look at the display booths for Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and the Government of Canada, they're stationary. Kids aren't going to stop there and take a look. For the government website, once again this is not a negative reflection, but you certainly have to communicate on Twitter and Facebook, etc.

I'm going to talk a little about agriculture in the classroom. I'll then flip it over to Ken to talk to you about some of the stuff we're doing in terms of social media that we feel would in fact be of benefit for the Government of Canada in terms of tracking new people.

Specifically, I'd like to respond to your question, Wayne, with regard to agriculture in the classroom. Somehow, between us and the Government of Canada, we'd like to see some type of federal or national program for agriculture in the classroom. We know that education is a provincial jurisdiction right now. It's perhaps difficult to get into provincial jurisdictions. But you have to begin educating young people about agriculture when they're five, six, seven, and eight years of age. They're doing it very well in each province, but there's a need for some uniformity across the country.

As we grow in urban areas, one of the things we're looking at is after-school programming. I'll give you a good example of an after-school program in the States. It's a 4-H club in an urban centre in Syracuse, New York.

They went to the Culinary Institute of America and had them make up a salsa recipe. The kids grew the products that they could for the salsa. They then learned a little about marketing it. In turn, they ended up selling it at fall fairs. The demand outstripped the supply. It's an example of some kids who were sitting in downtown Syracuse and who didn't know the first thing about agriculture. What did they learn? They learned about growing, marketing, and retail.

I'm perhaps talking too much in answer to that question.

Ken, I'm going to flip it over to you in terms of social marketing. It'll give the gals a few minutes to think about how we can encourage financing.

[Ken Lancastle]

At the Canadian 4-H Council, we recognize that youth are communicating in different ways from the ways they did before. We've made a concerted effort to make sure that we're getting into those forums and helping to facilitate the provincial move towards those forums.

We have taken steps to develop new social networking tools. Our Facebook and Twitter pages are constantly active and constantly updated. I know these two girls are both fans of the page. It's one way that we're communicating with them.

We've also recognized that kids and youth are going online to find out information more than they ever have before. We've taken the Internet as an open field for us to go in and till the land, if you will. We've established a new website called “careersonthegrow.ca”. The intention was to help promote the vast array of careers available in the agricultural industry, beyond production and including mechanical engineering, biochemical engineering, and even banking and insurance. We've also worked closely with other organizations to ensure that their online activities are helping to reach the right demographics.

There's a recent campaign from the Canadian Association of Diploma in Agriculture Programs, CADAP. I believe it's the deans of agriculture. They started a campaign called “Ditch the Office”. It's an online contest to encourage youth to create videos and short stories, enter some photos and photo contests, and win some prizes. It again promotes the array of careers available in agriculture and the array of areas of study that are available to them as they try to choose what they want to do next and where they would like to go in their careers.

Through these efforts, we're finding new ways to reach out to Canadian youth and provide new places for them to go to find out information that may or may not have been available or that may have been buried under other layers of information on the Internet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Bellavance, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you very much for your evidence. You must have several financial partners. You said you have had a partnership with Agriculture Canada for a number of years, even probably since the beginning of the 4-H clubs. I'd like to know what your situation is in 2010: what is your budget and what is the contribution of the Canadian government to this budget?

I am convinced that you also have other financial partners: could you tell us how they contribute? Tell us also if today your budget is sufficient. We have received explanations from Mr. Lancastle about all the new media, the growing importance of these information networks, etc. I imagine this entails costs. About your operations, I'd like to know if you succeed, with your budget, to fulfill the mandate that you have given yourself. Moreover, are you still looking for financial partners? How does this aspect go really?

[Mike Nowosad]

Pardon pour mon pauvre français. I used to say “poivre” français. I'll just speak in English.

We currently receive $600,000 annually from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. Our budget is approximately $2.2 million a year. The balance of the money comes from memberships, and a significant amount comes from corporations. Just to give you some examples, all the chartered banks in Canada provide us funding. Farm Credit Canada is a significant partner with us, as are all the agriculture and agri-food companies--Syngenta, Bayer CropScience, John Deere, Kubota, etc.

Could we use more money? That's a great question. Thank you very much.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mike Nowosad]

Yes, we could always use more money.

As to whether it's sufficient, we try to do more with less, at this point in time.

Ken, I'm not sure about social media in respect to whether there is a burden for us in terms of finances.

One thing I do believe is that if we're going to make a push into urban Canada...because I think that's where the future is. We're not going to forget what our past is--most of the MPs here are from rural Canada, where agriculture started, so we can't forget that--but the future is going to be in the urban areas.

Ken, I will let you respond with respect to funding for that.

[Ken Lancastle]

Again, from a budgetary perspective, social networking and social media haven't really made too big of a dent. We shouldn't downplay the importance of traditional means of communication as well. We still have a national magazine that reaches 26,000 members across Canada. Each one of the provincial 4-H agencies has its own means, its own newsletters or magazines as well.

We recognize that this is an important first step for us to reach out and give another means of providing that information for youth. I wouldn't downplay what we have traditionally done in terms of communication. This has added a little bit more to my desk and to my workload, but it is a necessary means of communicating.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I completely agree with you about the need to use today, in this new era, all those new media. It is a better way to reach young people than the traditional way, this is very clear.

Mr. Nowosad, you were talking a while ago about a partnership with Canadian banks. I was not there when their representatives gave evidence before the committee; I was somewhere else with the Minister of Agriculture. We have received their evidence and they tell us that they are partners of the 4-H clubs.

Having said that, they made a statement I would like to share with you—I do not want to put you in a difficult position with your fund givers. They tell us that they are witnessing a renewal of interest for wards agriculture by the younger generations. I would like to agree but, through this study—and even before it started—we have heard many young people tell us that they had thought about going into farming like their parents but they had finally decided not to do it for all the reasons which come from the difficulties associated with agriculture today. Others told us that they took the decision and went at it. They told us about all the difficulties they faced when they decided to go into agriculture and agri-food. Some even told us that they didn't know how long they would be able to continue their career in this area they love very much.

Moreover, Mrs. McDougall told us earlier that you too, you had thought about what you really wanted to do. I find that a bit curious: we have those testimonies and the banks' representatives come tell us there is a renewal as far as what young people want to do. I think this is a small contradiction. I would like to have your comments on that.

I do not know where the banks see that. I know you do not have to answer on their behalf but I would like to know what you think of that statement. What do you say? With all the contacts you have with the young people in a lot of places, is it possible to say that?

[Mike Nowosad]

I read The Western Producer today. There were two articles on your committee hearings across the country. One referenced specifically the banks, and quoted Bob Funk of Scotiabank and David Rinneard of the Bank of Montreal on how they see a bright future in terms of financial loans.

I'm not quite sure.... You're obviously talking to young farmers who are currently in the system in terms of their current financial situation. Perhaps they haven't been talking to those people. I can only reference one aspect. We have a program with the Royal Bank, with whom we've partnered in encouraging 4-H in urban centres.

Ashley, I don't know whether you want to talk to this.

When we were coming here today in the cab, we were talking about her parents and about financing. They're right in the middle of it right now, and we were talking about different banks.

Why don't you tell that story, about trying to find good rates?

[Ashley Knapton]

I asked my parents last night what they felt they would like to see. They're new farmers, so I wanted to know what they felt they needed. Mom said that they didn't want free money. They wanted sustainability in the industry. They wanted to be able to make money.

The thing that she really felt would make a huge difference was long-term low interest loans, especially for our quota loans. I don't know how much you guys know about supply management. It's a fantastic system, but it really causes a couple of hurdles. Supply management provides sustainability, but it cost us $32,000 a kilo to buy in, and we bought 12 kilos. So you can imagine our loans; they're pretty high right now.

If we had longer-term loans with lower interest, Mom feels we'd be better off. That's what I see. She's starting now to shop around. Because of the recent economic situation, interest rates have come down a lot, and we're at a point where hopefully we can lock into a lower rate.

That will make a huge difference. It will probably allow us to expand a lot earlier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to Mr. Atamanenko for seven minutes.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thank you for taking time to come here on such short notice.

To follow up on what you were saying, Ashley, if there were some kind of provision for interest-free loans for young farmers, that probably could be a major step. Is that right?

[Ashley Knapton]

It would be a huge step. That would make a huge difference, for sure. Interest is what's really getting us at this point, because we can only pay so much; we still have other bills to pay.

It would make a big difference, for sure.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

You were talking about all the great things that 4-H does. It's really admirable, and a great program; I have talked to other people in it. It's a great organization. You have all sorts of programs to get people involved, also from the urban setting. But the bottom line is that a lot of the people in your organization don't go into farming. They're not doing it because they can't make money.

[Ashley Knapton]

Exactly.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

You know, we can talk about all the great education opportunities and all the courses and all the science and all the innovation, but if you go into business, you hope to be able to make some money.

I think that's what we're trying to get at here. How do we get at a future where we can get younger farmers coming into agriculture, so they can have some kind of a life producing good-quality food and making money? I think that's the crux of it.

We've talked about banks. Apart from that, what else can we do to attract and retain producers? How do we maintain our rural communities, many of which are dying off as a result of people moving out and other services being shut down?

You mentioned local initiatives. I recently did a tour across the country to get some feeling of what people were saying on the whole issue of food sovereignty and food security. I saw this tremendous amount of initiative for local produce and local farmers, but at the same time there are also obstacles. The distribution system is geared to the big players. If you produce potatoes in Sudbury, they have to go to Toronto before they wind up in the supermarkets in Sudbury.

Last week we heard of the devastating effect that NAFTA has had, in terms of dumping, on our apple producers in British Columbia. We see the supermarket monopoly and how they're limiting the amount of local produce. In B.C. there are meat inspection regulations, and here, that have often forced smaller people out of business.

So there are obstacles, and I'm wondering if you could comment and give us some ideas of how we can overcome some of those obstacles so that more young people can get into farming.

[Ashley Knapton]

A lot of them are definitely hard to overcome, but making sure there's a market to guarantee farmers that they'll have income is key. Local is fantastic because that's what people are shifting towards. They are looking at how transportation issues are causing environmental damage, so local is key. At the same time, local is almost a niche market. It can give producers that edge, that extra amount of money they're going to make by not selling it to a wholesaler.

People will pay more for local. It has been proven at farmers markets and at farm gates. I know that lots of my neighbours put their produce out on a wagon and encourage people to come. They're making more money that way because they reduce the middleman. Basically it is straight from the farmer to the consumer.

I think that's an interesting way to head. We should look into that. I think it provides a lot more security. We know exactly where our food is coming from. And we would be able to support ourselves, which I think would be key, instead of relying on other countries--in my opinion.

[Gillian MacDougall]

I'd just like to say that with the quota system for milk we are protecting the farmers, so that if they have it they are going to be making money because they've bought into the quota system, whereas not everything has that. Some small farms, if they don't have the protection--they don't have the guarantee that they will be paid for what they're making--don't have the insurance, where the dairy farmers do. You are getting the guarantee that you will be getting paid for what you have bought in quota.

So it's a bit of an insurance plan where we know that those farmers will have some protection.

[Mike Nowosad]

It does come down to money, though. It seems to be boiling right back to dollars and cents. I talked to Ashley this morning--as I say, we'd never met before--and she was talking about going into production after she graduates from the University of Guelph. What's the first thing she has to do? Pay off her student loan.

So when you talk about interest-free loans, yes, that's probably not a bad way to go.

Ken, do you have anything else?

[Ken Lancastle]

Sure.

Ashley touched on it a bit too, that there are some niche markets that are out there. I think with some of the successful stories you hear about small farms, the farmers themselves have identified perhaps a product that doesn't have a local grower. I can think of a farm in B.C. I read about not too long ago that's growing wasabi and selling that in the local markets in Vancouver. Considering how far wasabi needs to be shipped at times, they've taken up a significant market share of that marketplace.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

If I have a minute, I'd I like to get your comments on this. It's sad to see, and we heard it last week and we're hearing it all the time, that there's all these farms and many large-scale farms where people need off-farm income to survive. The average percentage is something like 70%. Yet I met a young couple in northern Ontario who have an income from less than 100 acres of land and they don't need an off-farm income because they found those markets. They are actually farming organically.

You know, there's got to be a way of...and somehow people are doing it. I'm just wondering if you have any comments on that.

[Gillian MacDougall]

I think one thing is to be able to teach youth that it is possible. Teaching them how to grow things organically is a big part of it. If you don't know what's out there, if you don't share what's working, you're not going to get any more of it. One important thing is to have the education. Whether it is through school or weekend courses, whatever it is, to be able to share the education and share the success stories I think would make a big difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Do you have a comment, Ashley?

[Ashley Knapton]

I would just like to say that you need to share the success stories. A lot of people said we wouldn't be able to do it, and we did. You need to tell people that.