Evidence of meeting #58 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Gedge  President and Chief Executive Officer, Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario
Del Rollo  Secretary/Treasurer, Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario
Marc Godin  Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean Michel Roy

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Colleagues, I'd like to call the meeting to order.

It's meeting number 58 and, as you know, we're dealing with the study of promoting domestic trade and agriculture and agrifood products with the intent of reducing interprovincial barriers.

Today we have two witnesses. We have, on video conference from St. Catharines, Ontario, the Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario. Also with us is Marc Godin, from the microbreweries in Quebec.

We always like to try to move to the video conference first, Mr. Godin, just in case. Once in a while we run into a bit of a glitch, and it gives us an opportunity to come back.

With that, I'll move to the Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario, with Patrick Gedge, president and chief executive officer, and Del Rollo, secretary treasurer.

You can open with 10 minutes of opening statements, please.

Welcome.

3:35 p.m.

Patrick Gedge President and Chief Executive Officer, Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon.

My name is Patrick Gedge, and I'm president and CEO of the Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario.

As you mentioned, Del Rollo is with me, who is the secretary/treasurer of the Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario, as well as the director of Eastern Estates Wineries and government relations, Constellation Brands Canada.

We are very pleased to be with you today, and we are very proud to discuss our industry and its impact on the economies of Ontario and Canada.

The WGAO is the only trade association in the Ontario wine and grape industry that is composed of both wineries and independent grape growers. Our members produce 85% of all the wine produced in Ontario; purchase over 85% of all the grapes grown by independent farmers in the province; operate the largest iconic tourism wineries in the province, such as Inniskillin, Peller Estates, Jackson-Triggs, Trius Winery at Hillebrand, Château des Charmes, etc.; and represent 89% of all the exports of Ontario wine to some 73 countries around the world.

Every single person who deals with the wine and alcohol file comes away with the realization that this is really complex. I cannot tell you how many public servants and ministers have ended a discussion with that comment. But we could not agree more, because our major role as an association is to inform and share facts and experience about the industry with government. More often than not, there are unintended consequences that need to be understood and analyzed before final public policy decisions are made.

Our core message to government is that our $3.3 billion, 14,000-job industry in Ontario creates jobs and investments in this province and in Canada through agriculture, manufacturing, retailing, and tourism. Nationally, our economic impact, as you know, is some $6.8 billion and 31,000 jobs. Every bottle of Ontario wine sold generates $39.67 of economic impact. Imported wines are our competitors at all price points, and they create jobs and investments in Italy, France, California, Australia, Chile, etc.

So the best and most sustainable source of increasing revenue to the government is through supporting the growth of the domestic wine and grape industry in Canada, not in other countries. The driver of such growth is an increase in the sales of Ontario VQA wine, which represents 25% of all Ontario wine sales, and International Canadian Blends—ICB—wines, which represent 75% of Ontario wine sales. Both of these categories of Ontario wine compete against imported wines: VQA against appellation wines over $10, normally over $12; and ICB against imported value wines, which are under $10.

Our potential to grow the sales of both categories of wine is enormous. Overall in Canada, our market share of wine is some 30%, compared to 70% for imported wine. In most wine-producing countries, their domestic market share is typically between 75% and 99%.

At the same time, the portion of wine sales to all alcohol sales continues to increase, making our category more and more attractive but also more and more competitive. As one example of an opportunity for growth, the market share by value of Ontario wines sold through the LCBO is some 22%. In British Columbia the comparable number for B.C. wine sales through their liquor board is 43%. In many provinces in Canada, the market share of domestic wine is higher in their liquor boards than that of the LCBO, home to the largest wine and grape industry in Canada, so there are real opportunities for growth.

Please continue, Del.

3:35 p.m.

Del Rollo Secretary/Treasurer, Winery and Grower Alliance of Ontario

We are still a relatively young industry in the world of wine, but we have made enormous strides over a few decades. In terms of our size, our industry is still very small and therefore does not have the same economies of scale to compete worldwide. That said, the quality of our wine is highly recognized, as evidenced through winning awards at prestigious international shows such as Vinexpo, the International Wine and Spirit Competition, and Decanter.

Over time, we need to grow our industry and its critical mass in order to become more competitive in the marketplace. This means that our primary focus needs to be on growing domestic wine sales within our individual provinces, and then within Canada. The more that we own our home market, like every other wine-growing region, the more we will have the capacity and economics to grow our exports and brand recognition worldwide.

This explains why we have had two requests for the federal government, as articulated through our national organization, the Canadian Vintners Association.

First, we need to make Canadians more aware of domestic wine and its quality and value. This is not a short-term ambition, but will take years of exposure and of attracting more and more consumers to give it a try. Then our wine will speak for itself.

To achieve that goal, our request has been for a national domestic marketing program through Agriculture and Agri-Food. We have done a detailed business case to demonstrate the return on investment of a $35-million program over five years, which we had hoped would be in the budget. Regardless, we will be making a formal application to the Growing Forward 2 agri-marketing program for $12 million over three years, with fifty-fifty cost sharing.

Secondly, we want to have consistent treatment of every grape grown in Canada, regardless of whether it is used in appellation or blended wine. Currently, Canadian grapes are exempt from the excise tax only if they are used in a bottle of 100% Canadian wine, yet in Ontario over 50% of Ontario grapes are used in blended wines. We want to increase the demand for Canadian grapes in all provinces, so a consistent application of excise tax would provide the foundation for future growth of our industry.

Finally, in spite of the great allure of the wine industry, it is characterized by long-term capital investment and long-term modest returns. We compete against wines made in every country of the world. Let us grow our industry, enchant consumers, and create long-term sustainable jobs in our own country.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Now we'll move to Mr. Godin, please, from the microbreweries in Quebec.

3:40 p.m.

Marc Godin Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

I will speak in French. I assume the microphone is working properly?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

It should be fine.

3:40 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Association des microbrasseries du Québec is pleased to have been invited by your committee to help it to better understand the competitive and legal environment that limits the growth and competitiveness of Canadian microbrewers. Even though the Canadian microbrewery industry seems to be doing well, its development, competitiveness and even its survival are seriously compromised by the concerns and inconsistencies of the present patchwork affecting the legal structure in which it must operate. As you will see from the brief overview I will give, the current Canadian legal structure is not adapted to the global competitive context or to the reality of the new economy of microbreweries.

If our policies and regulations are to frame domestic practices to enable Canadian producers and processors to prosper and reinvest in the country's economy, you might say that this structure and this legal environment are rather dysfunctional. Most of the policies and legislation governing alcohol production and distribution in Canada were created in reaction to pre-prohibition social disorders. They were amended afterwards, but only in a piecemeal way, in response to isolated events and realities in each jurisdiction, without anyone taking the step back that was needed to reassess the overall competitive context and to harmonize the policies and regulations federally. Under these conditions, it is easy to understand why we are saying that our structures and legislation are somewhat ill-adapted.

I will give you a few examples. One thing in particular that comes to mind is the distribution cooperative that was created in Ontario under the name Brewers Retail and is now known as The Beer Store. This cooperative, which was created by regional Ontario brewers, defended the interests of those brewers for decades. It became the only legal system for distributing beer in Ontario. It passed into the hands of foreign breweries, which bought our Canadian breweries.

These foreign breweries are therefore benefiting from competitive and legal advantages that were put in place by Ontario breweries and the Ontario government to compete with Canadian microbreweries. Needless to say, this is completely absurd. Another thing that comes to mind is the federal measure that was put in place in the early 1990s to reduce the administrative burden of Canadian breweries and increase their competitiveness internationally. This was in reaction to the massive invasion of foreign beers on the Canadian market. It was a very good measure in itself, and the breweries and the Canadian economy benefited from this.

This interprovincial trade agreement on beer between Quebec and Ontario, which dates back to 1991, as well as the authorization of the free transfer of beer stocks between plants in Quebec and Ontario, is a very good thing. It allows us to exercise some competitiveness, but the problem is that, once again, the foreign multinationals are the ones benefiting from this advantage to the detriment of Canadian microbreweries.

Although Canadian microbreweries generate more positive economic and social benefits for Canada and its regions, they cannot take advantage of these benefits. So we are operating in an environment where there is a double standard. It is unfair.

I have another example I'd like to share. In Canada, unfortunately, we tolerate anti-competitive, if not illegal, practices. In fact, our current legislation and structure allow foreign multinationals to negotiate exclusivity agreements with large grocery chains and bar owners. Foreign companies can establish agreements of favouritism and even exclusivity with foreign multinationals to make it difficult to get access to regional products in Canada in large grocery stores. These practices have been deemed anti-competitive and illegal. However, our authorities to date have turned a blind eye, saying that this had not prevented our industry from progressing and that they did not want to intervene when it came to rules of the free market and competition.

When the market rules are unfair and unfavourable for their own economy, the authorities of the jurisdictions in question are required to intervene.

Lastly, I wanted to make you aware this afternoon of the fact that there is no dialogue among the provinces and the various jurisdictions to harmonize the policies and strategies, and to favour our domestic economy. In addition, the regulations are not consistent.

As you know, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is reviewing the definition of beer, which is very important because it would have a decisive impact on the scope of the regulations for beer production, labelling, distribution and taxation. Too broad a definition would favour beverages sweetened with refined sugar, which are not really beer. However, too restrictive a definition would hinder the creativity of microbrewers.

You can understand why we believe that, even though the goal of reducing the administrative burden and obstacles to domestic trade is very noble, it will not be enough. This should not be the priority. We are even convinced that, in the current legal structure, it would risk further harming microbrewers and, as a result, Canada's economy. Yet that was what was done first. What we think the priority should be is developing a better understanding of the overall competitive context and the inequalities that our current regulations are producing.

If we aren't careful and if we continue in the same direction that we have accidentally taken or, rather, that has been perniciously produced in the last few decades by foreign competition, Canada will become a simple water bearer for foreign multinationals; Canada will provide the roads, trucks, consumers and even the regulations so that Canadians can subsidize the business of foreign multinationals. A better understanding of the global trends and competitive environment, combined with a political will and a vision for the domestic development of the sector, that is what we believe should be addressed first.

The short time and limited time for my appearance today does not allow me to give you all the recommendations that we would like to put to you, which is why we will limit ourselves to three wishes or recommendations, and even plead with you to take a leadership role with regard to the following.

First, we would like you to act as a centralizing agent for information — and I think that is what you are doing today — but also as an expert advisor with government authorities and all the departments and agencies to raise their awareness of the critical importance of considering the global context and competitive issues before defining new policies or before trying to amend existing regulations. In addition, it would be important to insist on greater dialogue between government stakeholders and better consistency between the policies and regulations in force. We're talking about consistency of regulations.

We also hope that your committee will be able to act as a guardian of the interests of Canadian producers, processors and consumers. In fact, we hope that you will ensure that the market conditions and regulations are fair for all Canadian producers and processors.

Microbreweries are not looking for competitive advantages, but simply to compete in a fair market.

As you know, microbrewery beers are distinguished by their taste and distinctiveness. We have sort of given beer back its nobility and enabled the industry to renew itself.

In Quebec alone, we have created over 120 companies and thousands of jobs, but our potential for development and contribution to Canada's wealth is unfortunately limited, if not compromised, by the constraints I have spoken about today.

We would ask you to become the leaders who will respect the specific character of microbreweries, which will enable them to reach their full growth potential and contribute to Canada's economy.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much for the good presentations.

We'll now go to the rounds of questioning. I encourage members to stick to the points around the interior barriers, the internal barriers between provinces.

We'll start with the NDP and Madam Raynault, please, for five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Godin, thank you for being here today.

I am pleased to see you again. We met a few weeks ago in Joliette at a round table on microbreweries. I was there with my colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé. We had some very good discussions during the event.

You said that the measures adopted in the early 1990s favoured interprovincial trade. Could you explain how that happened?

3:50 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

Yes.

An interprovincial agreement was reached between Quebec and Ontario to enable Canadian brewers with production units in both provinces to exchange or transfer stock between their various plants. For instance, a brewer in Toronto could take its stocks brewed in Toronto and distribute them freely in Quebec and Montreal. And a Montreal brewer with a production unit in Ontario could do the same.

It allowed Quebec and Ontario brewers to generate savings through better logistics and, as a result, be in a better position to deal with the price war, not to mention dumping by foreign brewers.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

In your presentation, you said that 120 businesses had been created. How many jobs did that create? One hundred and twenty is a pretty big number.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

They are small businesses, but I will give you a general idea.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

SMEs are important in our region, and they create a lot of jobs.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

Our 120 SMEs created over 1,000 direct jobs. At that rate, if growth continues, we will soon reach 2,000 direct jobs.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

That's very good because, as I just said, small businesses and SMEs create jobs in our region.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

And these businesses reinvest their profits in the regional economy.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

Indeed. Of course, they also help businesses in our regions operate.

You mentioned the new economy for brewers and inequalities in the legal patchwork. Could you expand on that?

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

If I'm not mistaken, you asked two questions.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

What was the first question?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

I will ask my two questions now.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

I was talking about the new economy for brewers.

3:55 p.m.

Secretary Treasurer, Association des microbrasseries du Québec

Marc Godin

People say that it is a new economy, but really it's a return to local and regional economies using Canadian products, using Canadian labour and using all the resources. Some people say that it is a new economy because it is changing the established paradigm. However, before prohibition, Canada had many microbreweries and regional breweries. There were over 300 in Ontario and over 200 in Quebec.

Unfortunately, with the concentration of the control of breweries by foreign multinationals, we found ourselves in a situation where the majority of degustation beers and specialty beers were imported products. So we ended up with a trade imbalance in Canada. So what we are calling the new economy of microbreweries is, in fact, a return to our roots. It's a return to our local and regional economies.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

Let's talk about the inequalities in the legal patchwork.