Agriculture Committee on April 28th, 2015

[Del Rollo]

I would add one point, if I may. When we're talking to the various liquor boards and so on, one thing is the concern about how to handle this and make sure there are proper regulations put around it. I would look to the United States and what is done between the different states. There are software programs and there are the abilities to be able to regulate how the wine is shipped and create the appropriate policies, so that whether it's taxes or otherwise, it's all taken care of. I would suggest that if the concern is about taxes and so on, there are ways to regulate this, so that we can ship wine from province to province but those provinces still benefit from the sale of that wine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much.

[Del Rollo]

That's where I think we need to get to.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much, Mr. Payne.

This may be the last time we actually see him at committee. We may have to get a replacement after his acknowledgement of illegally shipping wine.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

I'll now move for five minutes to Madam Brosseau, please.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses who have shared their experience with us today.

Mr. Godin, page 3 of the document entitled “Un portrait de l'industrie brassicole au Québec” states that there were three large brewers and 63 small brewers in May 2013. In 2014, the number of small brewers had increased to 76.

What is the difference between a small brewer and an artisanal brewer?

[Marc Godin]

According to the Loi sur la Régie des alcools, des courses et des jeux, in Quebec, a microbrewer is a brewer that produces less than 300,000 hectolitres of beer a year. A large brewer produces over 300,000.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Very good, but we are still talking about growth in that respect.

We have microbreweries in the Mauricie region, but we also have the Ferme Nouvelle-France, an NPO that opened a few years ago. It brings together farmers and seed companies. There is also a malt house. The Festival brassicole de la Mauricie, which takes place annually, highlights our region's barley products that are made into beer. The number of people who attend the festival grows considerably every year.

I love beer. I am proud to buy locally when I can. It's a Quebec product from our region.

There was a bill that was introduced before Parliament that promoted local foods but, unfortunately, it did not pass. But I think that Canadians and Quebeckers increasingly want to buy locally.

Could you tell us the dream of small brewers in Quebec? Do they want their products to be more available in bars, supermarkets and gas stations? Gas stations in my region carry a variety of artisanal beers. What would really help microbreweries in our regions to increase their sales?

[Marc Godin]

Currently, in Quebec, microbreweries have only 7.1% of the market. If we were on a level playing field and we had the same access to the shelves and tap lines as the large breweries, that market share would be between 12% and 15%. A market share like that would mean thousands of additional jobs in Quebec, hundreds of additional hop farms and malting plants, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of specialized points of sale that would be profitable as a result of selling Quebec products. That is the microbreweries' dream.

In Quebec, there are almost 16,000 retail groceries. Of that number, only about 800 resisted the temptation to accept the gifts and kickbacks provided by the big breweries in order to make room for microbreweries. Those were the retailers who refused to allow exclusivities, in other words. So we have only 800 points of sale out of 10,000, 15,000 or 16,000 grocery stores. You can see how much that limits our development. We have moved from 1% to 7.1%, but the message I would like to leave with you today is that, if nothing is done, that's as far as it will go.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I quite agree.

[Marc Godin]

In addition, foreign multinationals are in a better position than we are. They keep putting obstacles in our way and competing with us. Ten years ago, our shares of the market were so insignificant that the large foreign breweries paid us no heed at all. Today, they are seeing that the trend in the market and in the industry is clearly towards regional products. So they are coming up with strategies to put up barriers in the way of our access. It is important for something to be done to change that situation.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

As I prepared for this today, I read an article and I think—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Very quickly, please, Madam Brosseau.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay. I'll just talk about Beau’s beer.

The brewery producing that beer is not very far from where I live. It is in Ontario and its beer is well-known here. You can easily get it at the LCBO Beer Store. It is difficult for that brewery to get a market share in Quebec, it has not expanded into the market there. However, it was easier for them to export to New York. They said they just had to fill in a form.

Do you have any comments for us on that?

[Marc Godin]

You are right. We are in the same situation in Quebec.

Let me tell you about something that happened to me.

A few years ago, my company wanted to take part in the Ottawa Wine and Food Festival. It took us almost four months of work and cost us $2,500 to bring 12 small kegs of beer to Ottawa, two kilometres from my place. We have a situation where it is actually easier for us to export our beers to Japan, France and the United States than to our neighbours in Ottawa. We have the same problem in Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much, Madam Brosseau.

Now I'll go to Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for presenting to us today.

Marc, what you suggest I think illustrates why we're doing this study in the first place. We have international trade markets opening up all the time, and it's incredibly frustrating for us as a federal government to see established within our country these little fiefdoms that are problematic for trade. Most Canadians don't even see this happening. That's why we're trying to highlight it. Thank you for coming today.

I want to talk to the wine guys first.

You know as well as I do that Dan Albas had a bill that we passed through. We anticipated that there would be an end to a lot of these problems that we're still talking about, that interprovincial trade would open up, and that everything would be grand, but here we are.

Knowing that I'm speaking to the converted, I know that you already know the issues. What I wanted to talk about is that you said an awareness campaign needs to occur about Canadian wines and how good our product really is. We have the Mission Hill Winery in B.C. We have many other vineyards and wineries in B.C. You have them in your region as well. What does that awareness campaign look like from your perspective?

[Patrick Gedge]

We developed a strategy through our national organization, the Canadian Vintners Association, in order to put together a vision, if you like, of how we would position ourselves in the marketplace and to also use that as a baseline for making a proposal to the federal government for a future campaign.

Core to that strategy is that we believe—and our research shows—that Canadians do want to buy Canadian and local products. That's a fundamental truth, and it comes out in the research. The problems you have are making them aware of how and where they can get it and building up their experience with the product. As I said earlier, there is no substitute for someone actually tasting the bottle of wine themselves and then deciding, “You know what? I really like that.” If you like that one, then let's try another two, three, or four different types, different varieties or whatever, and then you're starting to convert people.

But if people simply buy by habit what they've always bought over their entire lifetimes, or what their parents bought or whatever, then frankly you're not going to increase market share. You have to be able to provide those new opportunities at something like Taste Canada in order to start getting people to think about how they can get exposure to Canadian wine and how it pairs with food and culinary.... Then people start, but you have to get them to have that personal experience.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you for that. I was thinking a trade show I was at. A few trade shows back in my riding would be perfect for people to test those new varieties, because again, you don't know what you don't know, and they would be the perfect place to demonstrate this.

Getting back to the breweries, I would ask you a question. From your perspective as a Quebec beer producer, are you asking for reciprocity? You want to be able to sell your beer into Ontario freely. Are you suggesting that Quebec should sell Ontario beer equally without obstruction?

[Marc Godin]

Yes, perfect. That's it exactly.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

That's awesome. How about across the country?

[Marc Godin]

Absolutely: why not?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

That's awesome.