Agriculture Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Andrew, I just want to say that I attended one of your conferences or speeches at the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum two years ago, in 2017. I thought the perspective you brought with posting one picture a day and that lesson that you learned....

I'm wondering if you have had those conversations with our previous generations about the different pressures that apply to farming today and the mental stress that can be harmful to somebody who is, you know, 10,000 miles away from somebody who is trolling them on Twitter or on Facebook. At the same time, are young farmers reaching out to you through social media to seek support and saying, “Hey, I'm not feeling well today. How's it going?”

[Andrew Campbell]

I actually do get quite a few messages from people who are basically being attacked online. That's probably the one I get most commonly. They've put themselves in a space to try to do their best at helping a consumer understand what they're doing, why they're doing it, how they're doing it, and all of that. Unfortunately, if someone comes along and—as I've stated before—says some pretty nasty things, usually, most people swallow that and realize that's a troll. If all of a sudden there's a coordinated approach by some type of an organization, then every time you hit refresh, there are a dozen new messages telling you what a terrible person you are.

That wears on a farmer, and all of a sudden it leaves them in a tough position where they think, “I want to do good. I want to help people understand what I'm doing, but, guess what, whether I take a picture or not, the cows are still going to make milk, so do I really need to put myself out there?” Just trying to at least have that conversation about how we got through some of that, how we continue to get through some of that.... It's by no means any level of professional help, but we hope it gets them through what is usually a tough couple of weeks.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Great. Thanks Andrew.

Mr. Currie, with regard to stigma and how we approach that conversation with farmers, is OFA planning on organizing or providing training to some of their OFA directors or regional directors? I ask this because they do interact quite often with their farmers. We know that on the high school side there have been grassroots movements that have been started to say, “Hey, I don't think this person is feeling well, so I'm going to connect him with that mental health specialist.”

[Keith Currie]

Yes, we've actually recently done some training of our MSRs. We also have an individual whose title is capacity coordinator and who is working with our MSRs and our county federations. We're in the early stages of it, and it's a sensitive area. Not everybody is always forthcoming on there being a need for them, even though it's probably there. We're doing as much work as we can with our limited abilities, to make sure that our staff are at least trained to understand or to try to recognize when someone has an issue. Perhaps then, they can try to coordinate with them about where they need to go, whether it's to a family doctor or a nurse friend, whoever might be a better expert in that area. Yes, we are doing that kind of work.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thanks.

Heather, welcome to the committee. I know the training and the sessions you provide through your organization. Especially recently for me, I'm in dairy country, so I get farmers who will call me every day or month saying, ”The price of milk went down.” But then I also have farmers who will call me and say, “Well, over five years we're doing pretty good.” It's like the stock market, and my financial planner says, “If you're too stressed, don't look at the stock market every day. Look at it long term.”

Knowing that, different farmers will absorb the stress levels and impacts differently, and I think financial stress is a major cause. How does your organization deal with that? Do you talk about mental health when you give sessions?

[Heather Watson]

Yes, I think inadvertently we've started talking about mental health more. Perhaps we didn't call it that. We've done a lot of work on transition planning and succession planning, and we did quite a big project over the last two years in getting generations of farmers from the same farm coming together and learning together. What is it that's negatively impacting the farm? What's stalling the transition process? Where am I stuck? You realize through this that a lot of it is about going inside yourself and thinking, for example, “what am I comfortable with as a risk level? What are my biggest fears?” Then it's about putting measures in place to provide some sort of certainty and some sort of “control” over what's going on. It's looking at all the scenarios that your farm faces. Which ones can I mitigate by putting certain practices in place, such as business planning, or having regular conversations with the family, or having business-focused conversations? And, then, what things are out of my control, and what can I do about that? If the weather is out of my control, I've thought about the scenarios that I could face. What's my comfort level with this? We've planned as a farm team and as a family. What is our comfort level with this scenario, and therefore what are our different options should this arise? So, if milk prices dive or commodity prices shoot up, whatever it is, you've—

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Ms. Watson.

We have Mr. MacGregor for six minutes. Thank you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony today.

Mr. Campbell, I'd like to start with you. In your opening statement you were talking about the organized campaigns of negativity that go after farmers. Social media has been both a blessing and a curse. It allows you to make that connection with many people who are in your profession. We as politicians certainly understand the campaigns of negativity, but I think the difference is that we in some ways expect them. We know that when we take a political position there will be people out there who disagree with this. The difference with farmers is that this is not just your job, this is who you are. It's your identity. I think what we've heard in testimony in previous days is that there's not enough understanding of the worth that farmers bring. There's a disconnect between the work that farmers do and the end product that ends up on store shelves.

In the context of government being able to do collectively what we can't do individually, do you think there's something that we can recommend to the federal government in trying to promote the value of farmers to bring that understanding to the general public, to help you out, to give you that worth?

[Andrew Campbell]

The conversation that I know has been had around the table before is about that public trust element. I don't necessarily think farmers need that recognition of “Aren't you great? Good for you.” I don't necessarily think they're looking for that pat on the back. They're just looking to not be attacked. I think that's really what it comes down to. Are there more ways that we can build that public trust so that when a consumer goes to the store and chooses an item—and that's fine that they can choose—they don't necessarily do it because they think this other one is going to kill them or lead to some kind of a problem? Can we just build more trust in the food system? In the agricultural community, I think that would probably go a long way for a lot of farmers.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Are there any practical steps that the federal government can take, some kind of a campaign, to help you out with that?

[Andrew Campbell]

Probably there are, and there are probably even ways to fund ones that are already going on. There are a lot of organizations across the country that are doing that; even commodity by commodity we realize this is a problem. There's probably funding there, but I think it goes even beyond that to saying, “We believe in these tools, these technologies. We have branches of government that have approved these.” Whatever that is for government, to just be there and stand up and say, “This is safe. We do believe in this technology. We do believe in these tools” would be a huge statement in itself.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's perfect. Thank you.

Mr. Currie, I'd like to move to you. As a representative of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, from Canada's most populous province, you certainly have far more farms than I have in British Columbia. One constant we have heard about is the variables that are beyond farmers' control, and among them is the weather.

Last week the IPCC released a report that shows that under our current trend, we are heading towards pretty catastrophic climate change and will see the effects in droughts and floods and an increased frequency of storms. Going forward, this means that a child born today who inherits the family farm in 20 to 30 years is going to be right in the centre of that.

In the context of how those increasingly uncontrollable variables are going to affect farmers' mental health, are there any comments you want to offer?

[Keith Currie]

We've always had to deal with the weather. Farmers look at it as just part of doing business. To go back to Andrew's comments during his presentation, it's what happens right now that really stresses us out. We know that weather's coming, but until it actually hits us head-on, we don't assess it as being part of a problem.

We've been very good at adapting over time to whatever we need to adapt to, but as Andrew pointed out, it's a compilation of many factors, weather being one. It certainly puts the most immediate pressure and stress on us, but it's just a turning point from all the other stresses combined.

We're going to have to continue to work with farmers to make them understand that the weather is changing and is going to keep changing and that they need to be prepared and, through their farm practices, as ready as they can be for those changes.

That's about as far as we can go, because we honestly don't know what Mother Nature is doing. She doesn't give us a direct line to her to let us know what's going on, so we have to try to get people to be ready for the fact that changes are coming and mentally prepared to handle them.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

How prevalent is the topic of mental health now within OFA? Also, so that we're not all operating in silos, in what ways can the federal government help augment what you're already doing so that we're working together and pooling our resources?

[Keith Currie]

That's a great question. Thank you.

It has been very prevalent of late. We've had workshops the last two years at our AGMs that have been standing room only. We've actually had to turn people away who wanted more information, wanted to know where they can go, whom they can see, and whether they are normal. It's important for people to know that it's okay for people to talk about it; that it's an illness, it's not your fault. I think breaking those kinds of stigma is an important step that we can take.

Funding the work that Andria Jones-Bitton is doing at the University of Guelph for perhaps setting up her network would be fantastic, because now we have a central point for people to go to and to start from. There are folks such as Heather as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Currie.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. Longfield, you have six minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks, everybody, for preparing and coming to talk to us about this. It's always good to have Guelph in the room.

Keith and Peter, thank you for coming.

I want to build on what Alistair was just discussing. With joint jurisdiction, the OFA has sent a letter to the Ontario provincial government asking for support. The Canadian government has provided $5 billion for mental health with the health accord. We didn't have a health accord with the provinces and territories for a long time; we now have one.

Is the money getting through to the province? Are we measuring success in the right way? What is the joint jurisdictional challenge that we face as a federal government in delivering services to your organization?

[Keith Currie]

I'm going to turn to Peter.

[Peter Sykanda, Farm Policy Analyst, Ontario Federation of Agriculture]

Thank you very much. That's a great question.

In terms of measuring whether or not we're successful in this area, as we mentioned in our opening statement, this is a very multi-faceted and complex issue, and no two farms are the same. To know what success looks like in measuring how we're impacting mental health will require continued research.

We're hoping that in working with Andria and other folks, we can build a network that will coordinate the expertise across the country. Many people are doing great work across the country, and we'd love to see it come together in a strategic, coordinated, and, particularly, long-term way. We want to see that happen.

In the past, as we mentioned, there has been crisis intervention, but we want this to be a long-term effort and not a shotgun approach in which people are doing different things all over the country.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Are you working with the local health integration networks? We have the Waterloo Wellington LHIN in Guelph and the surrounding areas. Is that the strategic partner you're talking about?

[Peter Sykanda]

That would certainly be one we'd love to work with. Again, from the Mental Health Commission of Canada to other folks at the University of Waterloo, there are great resources all over the country that we'd love to be able to bring together. Certainly we need to learn a lot from the agriculture standpoint, which again requires more research. We'd love to see a better approach to that.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

That's great. Thank you.

Andrew and Heather, I have a joint question. I was thinking about when I started my business in 1986, and I can barely remember 1987. It was a very stressful year as I tried to get things going. I was thinking of my grandfather coming to Canada in 1920 as a blacksmith and starting up in rural Manitoba, going to all the farms to try to get his business going, and then the 1930s hit. He ended up in the Brandon sanatorium for six months. My grandmother had five kids. She was alone on the farm, and there was no income coming in. There was no social support, so they were eating squirrels and whatever they could get by with.

Heather, in your presentation you mentioned the impact on women. Women are as much a part of the farm as are the men on the field. Could you comment on the impact on family?

Andrew, we'll get to business start-up if we have time.

[Heather Watson]

Yes, most definitely. I think Keith would agree on the women's side. I think we need to recognize that women face different challenges. Men face challenges, but they're different. They're holding the weight of the world on their shoulders. The woman is often the mediator in decision conversations, trying to make everything work, the family as well as the business, trying to keep it all together. There are lots of conversations on farms about widows as well and the resources available to them. I think it makes absolute sense to carve out a space for women, and maybe with the research that Peter and Keith are talking about, figure out what is mental health, and what women's role is in agriculture on the farm and what that means.

I think that's worth unpacking, because I think there's a lot there and a lot of resources we could put into it, but I think it's a very specific piece we need to delve into quite deeply.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

My wife, Barb, was the one who got me through my business, and now she's getting me through this next career. If you don't have stability at home, you don't have stability.

Thank you for that.

Andrew, I'm trying to think in terms of my experience. It wasn't farming. I didn't have access to what happened in the markets. I was able at least to go and find new customers and I could charge the price I wanted to. What you're facing is a lot of uncontrollable variables. Then you have some that you can control. There are only so many hours you can spend on the fields, but working with experts to try to improve your productivity, do you look at what you can control versus what you can't control and try to separate those in terms of stress management?

[Andrew Campbell]

Yes, certainly. Heather also mentioned planning some of those things that you can control. One thing we did early on around our farm was to have that discussion, one, in terms of direction so that we are all paddling in the same way, but then, two, about how if we can't control the price, maybe we can control the production. Maybe we can control different areas. So how are we going to focus on that? Certainly that stresses you out a little, but usually you have the plan.

I find that usually a lot of those outside factors stress you the most, because you just don't know how to deal with them.