Agriculture Committee on Oct. 17th, 2017

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good afternoon everyone. Thank you all for being here.

Mr. Obed, thank you for giving us insight into what you face. Here, we are in our world, in our bubble, and very few people have had the opportunity to visit Nunavut. I was fortunate enough to go eight years ago, and I remember my surprise at how expensive food products were.

When we talk about making food affordable, numerous factors come into play, particularly distance, as Mr. Obed said. Organic products also pose a problem. More and more people are buying organic foods, but the average person can't always afford them. Why do organic tomatoes cost four times more than regular tomatoes, for instance? People who don't have a lot of money are going to buy the non-organic tomatoes because, in their minds, they are still tomatoes.

I would like you to tell me why organic foods cost so much more than non-organic foods. What do we need to do to make organic products affordable for the average Canadian?

[Dag Falck]

There are several factors involved in the production of organic food that are a little different from conventional or non-organic food. One of the issues is around production costs because we don't have as convenient an arsenal of tools to deal with the challenges of agriculture. We have to use methods that may not be as cost-effective. There's more labour involved in many cases. That's one factor that plays into it.

Another factor that plays into it is the certification cost, the cost of being certified and keeping the paperwork up to date because it's a guarantee system. You have to guarantee that you're using a certain amount, the prescribed methods, and not methods that are not prescribed or not allowed. That takes an extra amount of commitment and cost as well.

The third factor is that there's less support because it's still a relatively niche market. It's a small segment of agriculture that's organic so the support system for this form of agriculture is not as developed. There are fewer, if any, subsidies and the infrastructure is not as well developed. There are fewer, say, seed cleaning plants for grains to be cleaned that are capable of segregating and so on. Because of all these kinds of reasons, there is added cost.

One of the claims we often make is on the quality. We pride ourselves on making the highest quality food. If our food is of a higher quality, it may have more benefits per weight than conventional food. If that's the case, or if the consumers choose to believe that or do believe that, they feel that's part of what they're getting, then the cost is not necessarily as high comparatively.

For our company, Nature's Path, we consider, as you say, that all people should have access to food and we shouldn't price ourselves out of making food available for everyone. For our products, our additional cost is usually 10% to 15% higher for cereals. If you look at the different food categories, you see there is a different premium depending on the production costs and all those other factors I mentioned. Meat is very much higher. Fruits and vegetables can be double, but not necessarily. Dairy is usually double or more. There's a wide range.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Given all that, what can we do to make organics affordable?

The consumer protection magazine Protégez-vous recently did a piece on the issue.

I know that, in 2012, when we were in power, the federal government injected $13 million into the creation of the Platform for Innovation in Organic Agriculture.

Has anyone used the program?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

You have 30 seconds to answer.

[Tia Loftsgard]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that one. I don't know all the details of that, but we do have representatives from Quebec who can give you the information on that.

Quebec has the most successful organic production systems, and they have cost subsidies for certification and many innovative programs. We have “The State of Organics” report that summarizes all the innovations that are happening at provincial levels. I would be happy to follow up with the clerk and provide a full report, because there is some progressive stuff happening at the provincial level, just not as much as we need at a federal level.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

Thank you, Ms. Boucher.

It is now over to Mr. Breton for six minutes.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're doing a great job. It's nice to have you as chair today.

I'd like to thank each of our witnesses, who gave very informative presentations in order to provide our government with food policy proposals.

After my questions, I'm going to give Ms. Dabrusin a minute of my speaking time.

I'll start with you, Mr. Obed. You talked about food access and food insecurity. Mr. Falck, you talked about food insecurity among children. Research shows that a large number of Canadians experience food insecurity, nearly four million people and one in six children. That's very sad, indeed, and clearly, the situation is even worse up north, such as in your region, Mr. Obed.

I'd like to resume the discussion about how northern communities, in co-operation with the Government of Canada, can put strategies in place. I think that's a crucial element.

How can we work together to come up with strategies, solutions, or alternative paths to fix the problem?

[Natan Obed]

I think it starts with the renewed relationship and the Inuit-crown partnership that the Prime Minister and the Inuit signed in February. The work that flows through that with the Inuit-crown partnership committee is a place where we create a shared work plan. In areas that are of common concern, whether they're issues related to an Inuit Nunangat policy space or whether they're things related to housing, infrastructure, or food insecurity, working together is the first step. Many of our Inuit Nunangat regions already have food insecurity strategies, ways in which to combat it. We already have solutions or paths that we want to take.

The challenge has been with the broader inequity, the fact that we have 45% overcrowding in our homes, the median income gap, the infrastructure gap, the lack of education attainment. We have the high cost of living and the high cost of food. Again, this work and this policy aren't going to fix everything at once, but it's putting one step in front of the other. Anywhere that we can, we must figure out how to work in partnership, rather than having the old way of working of broad government policies that are not distinctions-based, that are not Inuit-specific, and that imagine solutions without ever thinking about our imagination as a people.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

You're right, we can always do better. Indeed, the policy won't fix everything, but what matters is improving the situation.

Mr. Allain, I will now turn to you.

This isn't something that came up in the presentations, but I'd like to talk about child obesity. Children's weight and youth obesity are major concerns. We are hearing about it more and more. This health problem, which affects more boys than girls, has been brought to the attention of our governments.

Mr. Allain, I'd like to know whether you have an opinion on the matter. You may have some insight that could inform our food policy. Some foods are obviously not as healthy as others.

[Marc Allain]

It would be extremely hard for me not to have an opinion on the matter. New Brunswick actually has one of the worst childhood obesity rates in the country.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

I see.

[Marc Allain]

What's more, the problem is most serious in the Miramichi region. It's prevalent in our community, and it's one of the reasons Carrefour communautaire Beausoleil exists and has made such a commitment.

The Carrefour played a predominant role in our initiative, and you just mentioned one of the main reasons it was developed. Yes, providing food and fostering economic and community development are important, but the health of our children comes first and foremost.

Two years ago, we made the choice to take back control of our food services, to say “no, thank you” to the then-provider. We hired a chef with 35 years of experience who had previously worked in a retirement home. We recruited him to reinvent how we fed our children. It doesn't end with what we put on the plate; that's not enough.

Children start coming to us at the age of two. We have not just a junior kindergarten program, but also a day care program for younger children. Our chef gave food workshops to the children in our day care, the youngest ones being two years old. He also gave workshops to high school students. That's where we need to start redefining our relationship with food. In order to tackle widespread and systemic problems like—

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Do you mean education?

[Marc Allain]

It's about more than just education in the traditional sense.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

Mr. Breton, I just wanted to let you know that you have 30 seconds left in case you still wanted to share your time with Ms. Dabrusin.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you for your passion, Mr. Allain.

[Marc Allain]

It's my pleasure. What I mean is education with a capital “E”. It transcends schools and extends into the community.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

You have 15 seconds, Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Obed, I think I'm just going to keep it to my 15 seconds and be quick.

You mentioned that there were several paths that had been identified as opportunities. I'm not going to have the time for you to tell us orally, but if you could provide maybe a list of the types of paths that you would see as already identified by the Inuit Tapiriit, that would be wonderful.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

That was an excellent question, Ms. Dabrusin. It will definitely be useful to get that information from Mr. Obed. Thank you.

Ms. Brosseau, you may go ahead for six minutes.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their contribution.

Mr. Obed, I was reading articles about Amazon Prime that say it has gotten really big in the States and that in Nunavut it's being used more and more. The cost of certain foods and daily necessities such as diapers and flour is insane. It seems that it's almost a national crisis, the insecurity and the situation. I'd appreciate your comments about Amazon Prime—how it's working, how it's being used by people.

Also, the government has tried multiple times.... We had food mail and now we have nutrition north. I'd like to hear your comments. I'm really looking forward to seeing the recommendations that you're going to table before the committee.

[Natan Obed]

Shipping is something that anyone who lives in Inuit Nunangat knows the ins and outs of: how to shop online, what not to ship, and what to ship. Amazon Prime and others before it have offered free shipping in certain circumstances in certain locations, but it's a challenge for sustainability. Just a very small package, even from the capital of Nunavut, Iqaluit, to Ottawa can be as much as $50 for something that's a kilogram or a kilogram and a half, and isn't more than a foot in diameter.

When there are companies like Amazon Prime that offer free shipping, it is something that people flock to and use in greater proportions than you'd see in the south. There's always a risk, however, that the service will be taken away at any moment.

The challenge is that we don't have equity in the way in which goods flow across this country, especially essential services and essential goods. For us in our 53 communities, only one is serviced by a year-round road. Our ports, our airstrips really are our essential infrastructure. We don't have rail systems. The fact that we don't have any of these components of our infrastructure drives the prices up for all of the things that come into our communities, whether they're perishable or non-perishable.

I think we are still in a nation-building phase for the Canadian Arctic and Inuit Nunangat. This example of one particular online retailer and the free shipping that they offer is just a small part of a much larger picture that I think we need to fix.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

As you said, it could end. They could just change their practices.

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Allain.

Canada is one of the only G7 countries without a school breakfast strategy.

Could you speak to the importance of including such a component in a national food policy?

[Marc Allain]

I think it's essential.

Any food security policy that doesn't take children into account is flawed from the outset. They have to be included. Not only is that necessary, but it is also a golden opportunity. Feeding a child is more than just an obligation; feeding a child properly raises the likelihood that they will develop a healthy relationship with food for the rest of their life.

If we don't do that, the kinds of habits we were talking about develop and lead to problems we will have to deal with later on, at which point, they are much harder to break. Not only should a national food policy address that issue, but it is also that very path that holds the most potential. If we really want to change the world and how we feed people, we have to start with children.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's great. I'm going to take note of that as a recommendation.

During the 41st Parliament, my colleague Ms. Quach introduced a buy local bill. Unfortunately, the then-Conservative government voted against it. She is nevertheless going to reintroduce the bill.

Could you briefly comment on the importance that buying local would have on the next food policy?

If I have enough time, I'd like to ask another question about how this food strategy can support the organic sector. I think more and more Canadians are curious to know where their food comes from. When they have the financial means to do it, they will buy organic, they'll ask questions, and they'll ask for mandatory labelling of GMOs.

Can you maybe speak a bit to that?

I don't know how much time I have left.