Agriculture Committee on March 9th, 2021

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to make sure the clock is reset. I don't want us to squabble about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

My finger's on the button.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Perfect.

Mr. Lawrence, I wanted to begin by thank you for your interest in the agricutural community through this bill. Regardless of the outcome of the work, it's clear that you're doing this work for the right reasons. That shows.

During the exchange you had with the previous speaker, some of the answers weren't very clear.

Would the exemption in your bill as written apply to grain drying and barn heating?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I hope everyone can hear me.

To be clear, it does apply to grain drying. It does not apply to barn heating, but we're open to an exemption on barn heating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Is there interpretation, Mr. Perron?

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I heard the interpretation, but the interpreter mentioned that she was having a lot of difficulty in hearing.

Mr. Lawrence, could you try to position your microphone between your nose and mouth, and speak slowly?

Are we continuing, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

It looks like the screen is frozen again.

It's frozen again. Transmission is really bad and it's freezing on and off.

I think you're connected on Internet, Mr. Lawrence. It seems to be the best. It's going to be hard to continue this panel because it's a really bad connection.

Mr. Lawrence, I don't know if you can hear. It's frozen again.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I apologize. Could you possibly suspend?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

We've lost Mr. Lawrence.

We'll suspend the meeting for now and let the clerk see if there's a way we can reconnect Mr. Lawrence. We'll be back once we hear back from them. We'll suspend for a minute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

We're going to start timing again.

Go ahead, Mr. Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Before I begin, I'd like to know how much time I have left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

You have five minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good. That's what I was going to suggest. It's a deal.

Mr. Lawrence, we're starting over. You're telling me that grain drying is covered, but not barn heating. So this bill doesn't apply to fuel, but to its use. It's a combination of the two. Is that correct?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

There is an exemption under the current act with respect to qualifying farmers for both. Right now it is for gasoline and for diesel from barn heating. Currently, as Mr. Ellis rightfully pointed out, barn heating and cooling is not included in the act for diesel and for gasoline. When we amended the act to include natural gas and propane, it's not included in the barn heating, per se. The amendment that we would welcome, quite frankly, and would look forward to includes barn heating as well.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I still see a problem with agricultural production. For example, a grain farmer would be exempt, but not a chicken farmer who heats his poultry house with propane. This is an issue I am raising.

Now, I am very concerned about the inequity in the Canadian market with respect to the treatment of agricultural producers. You know that this legislation doesn't affect Quebec at all and that Quebec participates in the carbon exchange with California. There's an exemption but producers are indirectly affected.

I know that other provinces, including British Columbia, are eligible for exemptions. Are you aware of the distinctions that exist? How do you think we could standardize that so that it's fair for everyone?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes, I think that's an excellent point. I think farmers find it way too complicated in general. When we look at the carbon tax and other types of regulation, it's so terribly challenging. You look at some of the agri support programs and they themselves are difficult. It's amazing the amount of paperwork and professional advice that's required, whether farmers are filing their income taxes or preparing an HST return or preparing the carbon tax that they owe at the end of the year. These just make farmers less and less competitive and take them away from the things they're great at, like planting fields and raising livestock.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Lawrence, do you have any data on alternative energy?

Basically, I think all members of the committee want to intervene to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as much as possible and slow down climate change. However, it needs to be done in an intelligent way. There have to be alternatives.

Have you found any alternatives that producers could use for grain drying, for example?

Do you have any thoughts on this? Should the committee be looking at this?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I think that's a great thing to study. I have heard from stakeholders that currently there aren't any economically viable solutions. However, what I would say to that is perhaps the opportunity to help farmers in this and to reduce greenhouse gas emissions—and I agree with the member; I think every member wants to reduce emissions and fight climate change—is not through using the stick of an inequitable carbon tax in the way it's applied, but just by making the carbon tax more equitable and by funding innovation.

Leave the money in the pockets of the farmers. Trust me, if you've ever met or worked with farmers or been a farmer yourself, you know they're among the most thrifty and environmentally minded, sustainably minded human beings on earth. If you give them the proper resources, I'm sure they will fight climate change and save money.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In this case, an alternative plan would be required to intervene.

Have you or anyone in your party started thinking about this, other than to create an additional exemption in the tax?

The purpose of the carbon tax is to reduce global warming. It's a noble goal. What could be put in place to achieve the same goal?

Have you give any thought to how to phrase this?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I think Conservatives have traditionally supported innovation and will continue to do so. I believe that innovation is a key driver to making sure that we protect our climate. There are so many great ways of doing it. I just don't think an inequitable share of the carbon tax should be put on the shoulders of farmers. Instead, we should be encouraging innovation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Lawrence.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Lawrence, for coming before the committee and being in the hot seat to talk about Bill C-206.

I've had a lot of back and forth with legislative drafters over my years as an MP and I know it's quite a challenge. We're lucky to be aided by such professional staff in the House of Commons, who take our big, bright ideas and put them into legalese. There is always a lot of back and forth between an MP and the drafters because when we write our bills, part of the challenge is also to figure out how they will be interpreted. Writing is the easy part. Then you have to figure out, when the rubber hits the road, whether your bill will be interpreted in the right way.

I just wanted to follow on Mr. Ellis's line of questioning.

When you were having your back and forth with the drafters, I know why you picked “qualifying farm fuel”. This is a very specific term that is used in different sections of the existing act. It's referred to in section 17 and section 38 of the existing statute, showing that the carbon tax is not payable. However, when you look at those other definitions, such as when it comes to eligible farming activity and eligible farming machinery, can you tell the committee what your back-and-forth discussions with the drafters were like on whether you should tackle those parts as well? Did they offer any insights?

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes. We had discussions and they said this would include grain drying. I have to tell you, looking at it, it's common sense. When we talked about farming, it's not an exhaustive list. It does not include, for example, planting of crops. I would say that's part of farming. If you've ever been to a farm and seen a grain dryer, you would say equally that is part of farming. Eligible farming activity includes the operation of eligible farming machinery.

We then look at the next part of the act. It refers to “an industrial machine”. This fits four-square and I honestly can't see a reasonable person disagreeing on that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, so you're quite confident. I read in the media.... We had both Minister Bibeau and Minister Wilkinson say that Bill C-206 as written doesn't provide for relief from fuel costs of grain drying, but you and, of course, our legislative drafter, who helped you with this bill, beg to differ on that.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes, exactly. We were in complete agreement on that.

Not to be too partisan, but just to be open and candid, when we look back at the credibility on this, in the initial part of the discussion, Minister Bibeau said there was no financial impact of the carbon tax on farmers. I shouldn't say “no”, but it was insignificant.

Now it has moved to the point where we have stakeholders agreeing that we have an issue here. Now they've presented the fact that, yes, there is a problem. I applaud the minister for coming that far.

However, once again, I look at farming. Farming includes grain drying. I look at industrial machine in farming activity. It includes grain dryers. I just don't see how a reasonable person could come to the conclusion that it doesn't include grain drying.