Evidence of meeting #28 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was emissions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aaron Coristine  Chair, Energy, Environment and Climate Change Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council
Linda Delli Santi  Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council
Katie Ward  President and Farmer, National Farmers Union
Mike Ammeter  Chair, Canadian Canola Growers Association
Dan Kelly  Chief Financial Officer, Dowler-Karn Limited
Dave Carey  Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Canadian Canola Growers Association

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Welcome, everyone, to meeting 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, February 24, 2021, and the motion adopted by the committee on March 9, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of Bill C-206, an act to amend the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act, regarding qualifying farming fuel.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

To ensure this meeting runs smoothly, I would like to share some rules with you.

Before you speak, please wait for me to recognize you. If you are participating via video conference, click on the microphone to unmute it. The microphones of participants in the room will, as usual, be monitored by the proceedings and verification officer.

I remind you that all comments from members and witnesses should be directed to the chair. When you do not have the floor, please mute your microphone.

Before welcoming our witnesses, I'd like to ask the members to remain in the meeting once the second panel is over. We'll go over the press release for the processing capacity report and approve the budget for the study of Bill C-205. This will only take a couple of minutes.

Now I'd like to welcome our witnesses. We have today, for our first panel, from the Canadian Horticultural Council, Aaron Coristine, chair of the energy, environment and climate change working group; and Linda Delli Santi, chair of the greenhouse vegetable working group. From the National Farmers Union, we have Katie Ward, president and farmer.

With that, we'll start our question panel. With the first panel, we have six minutes each, and we'll start with Ms. Rood for six minutes.

I jumped over the opening statements. I'm sorry about that. Let's go back to the Canadian Horticultural Council and whoever wants to take the opening statement for five minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Aaron Coristine Chair, Energy, Environment and Climate Change Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You had me worried that I had missed something.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

It's all yours.

3:30 p.m.

Chair, Energy, Environment and Climate Change Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Aaron Coristine

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today to provide testimony on Bill C-206. My name is Aaron Coristine, and I'm the science, regulatory affairs and government relations manager at Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers.

Today, I'm here to represent the broader fruit and vegetable sector as chair of the Canadian Horticultural Council's energy, environment and climate change working group.

By way of introduction, the CHC is an Ottawa-based national association representing over 14,000 fruit and vegetable growers across Canada involved in the production of over 120 different crops with $5.4 billion in farm cash receipts in 2019.

Canada's fruit and vegetable growers are committed to being a part of the climate solution while also playing a major role in food security and Canada's economic recovery.

CHC and our members have consistently and actively engaged with the federal government to ensure carbon pricing policies connect the dots between the cost of carbon pollution and desired behaviours and outcomes versus unintended impacts and overall lowered emissions. Our consistent request has been for federal leadership to ensure that carbon pricing exemptions and relief are extended to the full range of farmers, including greenhouse growers, across all main fuel types, including natural gas and propane, used in common agricultural machinery.

In short, carbon pricing policies need to better reflect the modern agricultural practices across Canada, support increased security of food production and sovereignty, and minimize competitiveness impacts across provincial boundaries and with our major international trading partners.

CHC is interested in more information on the delivery of the government's commitment in budget 2021 to return a portion of the proceeds generated from carbon pricing directly to farmers in backstop jurisdictions. With regard to concerns with other GGPPA definitions, CHC supports Bill C-206 and its expanded definition of “qualifying farming fuels” to include natural gas and propane.

Although it falls beyond the specific scope of this bill, we also believe it is critical to amend other definitions in the GGPPA to ensure Bill C-206 achieves its intended outcomes. More specifically, in the legislation “eligible farming machinery” is defined to explicitly exclude property that is used to heat or cool buildings. As a result, certain farm machinery, when used to heat and cool buildings would, regardless of the fuel type, necessitate regulatory inclusion as a “prescribed property” to attain carbon pricing relief.

3:35 p.m.

Linda Delli Santi Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Thank you, Aaron. I'll continue on.

My name is Linda Delli Santi. I'm the executive director of the B.C. Greenhouse Growers' Association, and chair of the Canadian Horticultural Council, greenhouse vegetable working group.

My greenhouse career started in 1982 when my husband and I built our first greenhouse. I was the grower and operator. We grew beefsteak tomatoes for 14 years and then red bell peppers for another 14 years.

The B.C. carbon tax on fuel was started in 2008. The greenhouse sector was able to get relief of 80% of carbon tax paid in 2012. Unfortunately, the carbon tax took its toll on our family farm. We stopped growing at the end of 2009. At that time, I was already the CHC greenhouse vegetable working group chair and, in 2010, I became the executive director of the B.C. Greenhouse Growers' Association.

Our industry faces considerable challenges—including labour shortages and insufficient financial protection—which have been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Carbon pricing intends to reduce emissions, but in practice it also creates a competitive disadvantage between farmers across provincial jurisdictions and on the international stage.

In our northern climate, farmers rely on heating and cooling using a range of fuel sources across production types, including greenhouses, livestock farms and machinery such as grain dryers. Quickly transitioning away from carbon-based fuels isn't always an option nor a simple choice on the farm. Vegetable greenhouse facilities for example are equipped with computerized climate-controlled systems to provide optimal growing conditions. Most growers rely on natural gas boilers for a consistent, cost-effective, sustainable and on-site source of key combustion by-products. Both heat and food-grade carbon dioxide are provided for the plants to breathe and grow. With advanced combined heat and power systems, even the electricity for supplemental lighting is generated.

Farmers have a long-standing history of innovating and improving efficiencies. To further incentivize reductions to greenhouse gas emissions, the move to a low-carbon economy needs to recognize the environmental co-benefits that farmers provide. It needs to support them with legislation that addresses the full range of primary agricultural production, which is not currently in a position to transition away from fossil fuel consumption.

In conclusion, throughout the pandemic, Canada's agricultural sector has stepped up and continued to provide secure and healthy food sources to Canadian families.

We thank you for the opportunity to speak today and look forward to your questions.

I'm sorry if I went a little over.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

We're good. Thank you, Ms. Delli Santi.

Now from the National Farmers Union, we have Ms. Katie Ward.

You have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

3:35 p.m.

Katie Ward President and Farmer, National Farmers Union

Thank you and good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to present today. It's a welcome break from the lambing barn.

My name is Katie Ward and, in addition to being a sheep and hog farmer in the national capital region, I'm in my third term as president of the National Farmers Union. The NFU is Canada's only national direct membership general farm organization, representing thousands of farmers from coast to coast, engaged in all commodities across a wide range of scales—everything from market gardens to large-scale export grain operations—and utilizing a variety of practical approaches from organic and biodynamic through to regenerative and conventional.

No farm organization has thought longer and deeper about climate change and reducing agricultural emissions. The NFU has been advocating for climate change mitigation and adaptation policies for over two decades. Climate change and emissions reduction was the theme of our 2003 national convention, but our policy and educational work on the connections between agriculture and the climate crisis goes back as far as 1997.

In 2019, the NFU published a discussion paper entitled “Tackling the Farm Crisis and the Climate Crisis”, which laid out a road map for a 30% reduction in agricultural emissions alongside policies to increase net farm incomes. The NFU has called for a transformation of Canadian agriculture: a future with lower emissions, more farmers, higher net incomes, lower debt, more use of renewable energy, more young farmers and production systems based on agroecology, food sovereignty and protecting and regenerating soils, water and biodiversity.

The NFU is the only farm organization that intervened in support of the federal government in the Supreme Court challenge on the carbon levy. I bring this up to clarify that, while we do not advocate having a carbon levy on farmers and the fuels we use on our farms and ranches, we do strongly support the constitutional right of the federal government to implement strong and effective national measures to rapidly reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

In 2018, we became one of the founding members of a coalition called Farmers for Climate Solutions, which advocates for agricultural practices and policies that reduce greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture as the most effective way for farmers to avoid paying a price for emissions. In 2019, delegates at our 50th annual convention passed a policy resolution supporting a rebate on fuels such as propane and natural gas for dryers and other agricultural uses such as barn heat, because we believe that farmers face enough of a challenge to our bottom line already and that the erratic weather patterns caused by climate change, which disrupt our harvest catastrophically as happened in 2019, should not mean that farmers face financial penalty on top of the weather risks that impact our very livelihood.

I would like to thank the government for the rebate announced in last Monday's budget for the backstop provinces where the federal pricing is in effect. A simple rebate mechanism would be for farmers to document eligible or non-household use of natural gas and propane and attendant carbon levies paid and to request a refund, perhaps as part of a tax or GST filing.

In light of the budget announcement, it may be that Bill C-206 is no longer needed, especially since we understand that the budget rebate mechanism may cover barn-heating fuel usage in addition to grain-drying fuel usage and would, therefore, be more expansive than the bill under consideration here today.

I want to note, however, that we are here today to talk about removing a measure, admittedly flawed, that could reduce on-farm emissions. While it is necessary to ensure that farmers are not financially penalized while low-emissions technology catches up to the extreme weather challenges we're already facing as we grow food here in Canada, it is more necessary to introduce a suite of measures to partner with farmers, support farmers and incentivize farmers to reduce emissions so that agriculture is not increasingly seen as a high-emissions sector, while other parts of our economy are reducing their emissions on the way to our Paris targets.

Last Monday's budget introduced a number of very positive programs and spending measures that the NFU and Farmers for Climate Solutions have called for, and we're grateful to see financial support for farmers and ranches to actually implement practices that will reduce farm-related GHG emissions. Assistance to transition to low-emission technology and practices on our farms means that we don't have to face the financial risk of such a transition on our own and helps to level the playing field when we're in competition internationally with farmers receiving far more agri-environmental support, such as in the EU and the U.S.

Given market demand and potential border pricing measures under discussion internationally, everyone knows that we must go further, so we need additional programs to support farmers.

I'd like to highlight for you what we are suggesting could be called a Canadian farm resilience agency, or CFRA, modelled on the prairie farm rehabilitation administration, which the federal government administered across the prairie provinces for 70 years—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Ms Ward. Unfortunately that's all the time we have. We'll have to start the question round.

We'll start with Ms. Rood, for six minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Rood.

April 27th, 2021 / 3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for the Canadian Horticultural Council.

I understand that many producers rely heavily on gas and propane, and greenhouses are exempt. You touched on this. Coming from the produce industry with a potato background, I know there are a lot of heating costs in the winter to heat the produce that is in storage over the course of the winter so that it doesn't freeze. Right now costs include the carbon tax.

I'm curious if you have any idea what the typical annual cost to horticulture producers would be of a carbon tax on propane or natural gas for that, even an average number.

3:40 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Linda Delli Santi

Are you asking just for potato barns, or did you want to know—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I meant in general, for anybody. That was just one example. I meant the cost for produce barns to store the root vegetables over the course of the winter.

3:40 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Linda Delli Santi

I'm sorry, but I can't answer that. I know a lot about greenhouses but not much more.

Aaron, are you able to answer that?

I don't see him anymore.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I think he disappeared.

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Linda Delli Santi

That's unfortunate.

We can get back to you with an answer. I can tell you what the carbon tax—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

That would be great. I'll move on to my next question, if that's okay.

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I only get six minutes, so I have to keep this tight.

You probably can't comment on this question either, but I'm going to ask it anyway even though it's outside the scope of the bill. It's about paying carbon tax on fuel used to transport goods from greenhouses and farms to the point of sale.

I'm not sure if you have any estimates on that, but what is the typical annual carbon tax that would be paid by producers in transportation costs to get their goods from the warehouse to their packing facility or from the packing facility to where they need to ship them to?

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Linda Delli Santi

I'm sorry, but I can't answer that either. I know about greenhouses and I know the carbon plan in B.C., which does not include the transportation of goods. I would have deferred to Aaron. It looks like he's come back, but he might not be there.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Do you have any idea, then, how much of a factor the carbon tax is in the rising prices of the produce industry, whether in greenhouses or across the board, speaking on behalf of the Horticultural Council?

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Greenhouse Vegetable Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Linda Delli Santi

Aaron, did you hear that question?

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Energy, Environment and Climate Change Working Group, Canadian Horticultural Council

Aaron Coristine

No. The Internet at our office just went down. You have my sincerest apologies.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

That's okay. I'll move on, because we're running out of time.

I'd like to direct a question to Ms. Ward.

We had the pleasure of having a conversation before, and I appreciated that conversation. You touched on some of the points about reducing agriculture emissions in Canada, but we know that agriculture and farmers have done a lot of things already on their own, even over the last decade, to reduce emissions.

You mentioned to me before that you are a member of a larger organization that is part of a group of about 200,000 members or so. It has 182 organizations in 81 countries, so I'm wondering if you can comment here.

We're focused on Canada, but we only have 2% of the world's emissions. What are you doing as part of those organizations to help agriculture in other countries to reduce emissions?

3:45 p.m.

President and Farmer, National Farmers Union

Katie Ward

The organization you're referencing is called La Via Campesina. It is an international organization of peasant and small-scale farmers and fisher folks from across the world. Many of the organizations are, in their home countries, engaged in food sovereignty issues and work against deforestation, which is, of course, a prime driver of emissions in a lot of developing countries.

In a lot of cases where some of these smaller organizations are engaged, the emissions issues are less from agriculture in a lot of countries than they are from energy production. It doesn't tend to be a primary focus of those organizations. However, some of our sister organizations in the EU, for example, are actively engaged in emissions reduction practices and education, just as we are here.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm going to defer my last question to Mr. Lawrence, if that's okay.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you, Ms. Rood.

My question is for Ms. Ward. Thank you for your actions in fighting climate change.

Although I too was pleased to see that the government at least acknowledged that this is an issue for farmers, it may in fact take them years, especially in a minority Parliament. It might be three or four years.

Could you not see putting this solution in place, Bill C-206, to help farmers in the interim, as some are paying thousands and thousands of dollars, even if you do believe in the government solution?