Agriculture Committee on May 6th, 2021

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay.

Thank you. That's great. Technical problems will never cease in this Zoom world.

Mr. Barlow, just with the wording of your bill, what if a savvy protester took steps, understanding what the biosecurity rules were on a farm, to protect against biosecurity risks, such as wearing the proper clothing and taking the proper steps with sanitization? Is there a way for them to get around that and still be on the farm?

We're just trying to find all possibilities and ways your bill might be interpreted.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Sure.

Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor.

No, because the wording in the bill is “without lawful” entrance, so they are still trespassing on private property. Even though they may have taken all of the precautions, they would still be in contravention of the act, as they're unlawfully on that property.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I know some cases have been revealed by employees. If employees were on the farm and they noticed something going on, they're there with lawful authority, an excuse, and therefore they could report this and not be touched by the provisions of this act.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you raised that.

That whistle-blower element is still there and protected. We wanted to ensure that that was still there. As farm employees, or even members of the farm family, it is their duty in many ways. If they see something that is not meeting CFIA standards, or is endangering the health and welfare of an animal, they should be reporting that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor and Mr. Barlow.

Now we'll go to the second round.

Mr. Lehoux, we now go to you for five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Barlow. Thank you for being here today.

I have a fairly straightforward question for you.

Bill C-205 is quite significant. My riding is home to a lot of hog farmers, so protecting biosecurity is certainly very important to them. It's one of the worries farmers have, worries that can easily lead to mental health problems.

Mr. Barlow, talk, if you would, about the bill's deterrent effect. When it comes to break-ins, are the fines stiff enough to deter would-be perpetrators?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lehoux. It is so good to see you again. I do miss being able to see many of you in the House.

Really one of the reasons we looked at this bill was that we had met with hog farmers and the processing industry. One of the next big things they are worried about is African swine fever unfortunately planting its roots here in Canada. We have seen the devastation it has had on the Asian hog industry. As I mentioned earlier, more than a million animals have been euthanized in China. Many in the hog industry specifically do not think we are prepared to handle an outbreak of African swine fever here in Canada.

Ironically, we all talk about COVID-19 right now, the impact that has had on our economy and how in many ways we were ill-prepared to deal with the pandemic. One would argue that we are equally as unprepared to deal with an outbreak when it comes to animal viruses and diseases, so the idea behind this was to really, in many ways, raise awareness about the risk that our food supply is at and the very critical role that our farm families play as frontline protectors of our biosecurity, and the idea that this must be taken extremely seriously. That is why we set the fines of $250,000 for an individual and up to $500,000 for an organization, because if it is a specific organization that is directing this unlawful behaviour, those protestors may receive a very small fine, but that organization is free to move on with no consequences. In many ways it is using this as a fundraiser, so if anything is benefiting it, we need these harsh consequences in there.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Barlow.

We know CFIA and farmers' associations work together to develop biosecurity standards.

What role should the agency play in all this? What involvement should it have in implementing the bill, if it passes?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux.

That was really one of the things I heard about in speaking with the RCMP and CFIA. They're frustrated with this because they don't feel they had the tools previously to really ensure that protestors who did break onto farms were held accountable. It was as frustrating for them as it was for the farm families who wanted to ensure they were protected. Basically, what we are doing is giving CFIA the tools it needs to enforce the biosecurity and protect the mental health of our farm families. This will allow them to lay those consequences at the feet of those who unlawfully protest or trespass on the farms.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I gather, then, that the agency is ready to assume that role.

What additional tools would the agency need to ensure the bill does what it's meant to?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I think we're seeing some moves in a positive direction when it comes to that, Mr. Lehoux, in that in Alberta specifically—and I believe Ontario has done it as well—you have provincial inspectors training with CFIA inspectors to have a harmonization of qualifications so they can trade off on some of these duties. Obviously, some of these places are in remote and rural communities, so you can have that trade-off with CFIA and provincial inspectors to make sure they have the resources to enforce some of these rules, but if this comes through, we want to ensure that CFIA does have the resources it needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Barlow.

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux.

Now we will go to Mr. Longfield for five—

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Is my time up already, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Yes, you're out of time.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chair, it's great to be back in the ag committee with Mr. Barlow, Mr. MacGregor and you.

I remember the studies, and I remember in particular the mental health study and the impact on mental health of farmers and ranchers when they're not only targeted by people invading their property, but also by being portrayed as murderers, as Mr. Barlow said in his opening statement.

I also remember the safe handling of animals during transport where this was also an issue, where farmers and ranchers are really there to protect and steward the animals that are under their care, and all the protesting goes directly against what the farmers are trying to do to bring animals safely and healthily to market.

The act itself is something that I'm struggling with a bit in terms of the offences. Currently, there are strict liability offences, and I wonder how straightforward it would be for the CFIA to enforce this bill where they would have to show that the intent was for the perpetrators to cause a disease outbreak. It seems that this is a significant piece, because it really changes the way that the CFIA operates.

Mr. Barlow, could you maybe comment on your sense of what additional resources would be needed? You just mentioned that in your closing there. How would this work through the CFIA and the need for them to prove some type of intent under the law?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Longfield. I know you have a Cargill meat-processing plant in your riding as well, so you're—

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Yes, it's the second largest. Yours is the largest.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

It's no competition.

You are well aware of the issues that this bill is trying to address.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Yes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I really want to be clear with the members of the committee that this is a job that CFIA is already doing. This is not something that we are putting on them that they have never done before. That was really one of the reasons we went this route rather than a Criminal Code change, because the CFIA is already doing this job. We're just strengthening the consequences and the deterrents that are there.

For example, I believe there were 12 charges in 2020, two charges in 2019, and 43 charges under the regulations in 2018, so this is something they've already been doing. The issue I am identifying here is that the consequences aren't tough enough to really deter this type of unlawful activity.

As you talked about when you were a member of this committee and the committee did that mental health report, the devastation this has had on Canadian farm families is very real—and that's not even talking about the biosecurity risks that are also just as real.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Yes, and I remember Mr. Dreeshen also making that point during the committee as we looked at how to protect the health of animals primarily from people who are supposedly trying to protect animals, but in doing what they're doing, they're actually putting the animals and the farm families at risk.

That role of the CFIA is one piece that is a bit outstanding for me, because I know that the CFIA's role changed over the years, where they used to also be involved with helping with marketing, but then everything fell under Health Canada.

Part of our frustrations with committees is that sometimes it was something that had to go to the health committee, and this one might be something that has to go to the justice committee. I think there might be some clarification that the committee could look into there.

Also, with the civil rights, the trespass rights that you mentioned as being provincial jurisdiction, we do have the national law enforcement in many cases. In Ontario, we have the OPP.

In terms of how the provinces would see the federal government going into provincial jurisdiction and saying, now we're going to take over this, what would we say to the provinces there?

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Again, Mr. Longfield, we're not intruding on provincial jurisdiction, because this is a job that CFIA is already doing. Again, we're just giving them some different tools or some stronger tools for them to do that job.

Sorry. Go ahead.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

It's more the precedent of our enforcing the trespass laws. I know that CFIA is there for other purposes, but I think this is more of a trespass situation.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

That's certainly part of it, but this isn't a Criminal Code trespassing issue. When it comes to protecting biosecurity on farms, this is something that CFIA already has the authority to lay charges on and to enforce. We're just strengthening that part of it.

You're right. CFIA is under the Minister of Health. This is something on which we're going to have to have a discussion with the Minister of Health at a future date, and I've already reached out to the minister to have a discussion on this.