Agriculture Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

If people had suspicions, could they contact the MAPAQ?

[Marcel Groleau]

Sure, they could. Inspectors from the department would then go to the premises.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You brought up mental health a lot in your statement. I would like us to go into it a little further.

Are people afraid that, at some point, an incident might turn bad? I'm thinking of someone who wakes up in the morning and sees 20 people on his private land and does not handle the situation well. That could have harmful consequences.

I for one am afraid of that, and it's not often mentioned when the issue is being studied.

Have you discussed it in your organization?

[Marcel Groleau]

Yes. In addition, we have sent notes to all farmers with a view to preventing situations like that. We have told them that, if ever that situation happens on their farms, they must not try to deal with the situation themselves and they must call the police instead. We have given them an entire procedure to follow. We ask them specifically to take photographs so that people can be identified.

However, Mr. Perron, we are certainly not able to control the reactions that each and every farmer might have.

You are a farmer, Mr. Lehoux, and you know farmers. You know that not everyone would react by keeping cool. I am sure that some would tell people to get off their land immediately. All kinds of things can happen in situations like that. Emotions can get the better of people.

Yes, we are certainly afraid of that. I even feel that it is what the activists are looking for. If they can capitalize on a situation to decry violence on the part of a farmer as well, you can be sure that they will.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ference, I am glad to be talking to you and seeing you. You referred to an incident where 30 or so people made their way onto a farm. We do not have a lot of time but, quickly, how did that end up? Mr. Groleau has just said that farmers are told not to deal with the situation themselves, but that is what the farmer you were referring to did. He tried to deal with the situation.

How did it end up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Please reply quickly, Mr. Ference.

[Darren Ference]

The farmer arrived at the barn and opened the door to find 30 people lined up down the wall. Those people had already called the RCMP. The RCMP came and didn't really know what biosecurity was. The RCMP ended up outside, and the people were demanding the release of a turkey. Our protocol is to never release. I believe that at that time we hadn't gone over it with the farmer, and I believe he did release a bird to their care, which could not be put back in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Ference.

Now we'll go to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

We can broadly define trespassing as unlawful entry onto private land. I think it's mostly contained within provincial legislation, because under our Constitution the provinces have exclusive jurisdiction in making laws in relation to property and civil rights. The criminal law is engaged when we have an identifiable harm against public health, which is why the CFIA exists as a federal agency.

Mr. Ference, you made some comments about how provincial laws against trespass are not really working. Can you broaden that point? You said that police have had a hard time following through with charges. Can you illuminate that a bit more so we can understand it?

[Darren Ference]

We're talking about the trespass that occurred here. The trespassing bill had not yet been brought forward in Alberta. It was brought in afterward because of this circumstance. Then you could have the “no trespassing” sign, but people could come in from any point. Before it, the farmer who was trespassed against had to press the charges and be convinced to press the charges. There was no distinct law to automatically charge people without the farmer pressing charges.

It's important to have these laws in place to set things out so that if you violate them, you have to go. The law in Alberta now has stronger penalties toward the organization that organizes trespasses, and it's very similar to Bill C-205. It's important that we get consistency across the country. I was listening earlier to some of the chicken farmers. You don't want people to go to an easier spot to target farms.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You made a comment earlier about the police and their training on biosecurity issues. What do you think the police agencies' current understanding is of biosecurity?

[Darren Ference]

When we went through it as part of the Alberta board, there was very little understanding from the police on what biosecurity was. They entered barns without any biosecurity protocols. They did not put on any biosecurity clothing or clean their footwear or anything else when they were going in, which is standard in the feed industry. Anybody who's associated with a barn or with an operation would do that. They had no understanding of that, and they just entered to remove the trespassers. I think a lot needs to be done there.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm asking that question because I think the police have a very good understanding of what trespassing is: being unlawfully present on private property and not leaving when the owner says to leave. The CFIA is an organization that intimately understands the concept of biosecurity. They have already testified before this committee that if Bill C-205 were to come into effect, they would not have the resources to take on the added responsibility.

How do we fix that? If Bill C-205 does become part of the Health of Animals Act, how do we fix the situation if police decide to apply charges? Would they need to have CFIA officials with them to give them an understanding of biosecurity? I'm wondering if you have a solution to how we fix the resource problem in implementing the law and enforcing it.

[Darren Ference]

I think it could be some simple training on some simple biosecurity practices. In the rural or agricultural areas, it should be part of the RCMP training.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's good to know.

Maybe I'll open the floor up to other witnesses, if they want to chime in.

We received a brief from Humane Canada, which of course is the national network of all of the different humane societies in each province. They've made some recommendations. They would like to see the federal government provide stronger support for the National Farm Animal Care Council's work to create standards of care, as well as increased financial support.

Do you think that would go some way toward being proactive in providing some much-needed education to the Canadian public about how farm animals are looked after?

[Darren Ference]

Is that for me?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Maybe you can start, and if any of our other witnesses want to chime in, they can.

[Darren Ference]

Phil, do you want to go ahead? You have your hand up.

[Phil Boyd]

Thanks very much, Darren.

Thanks, Mr. MacGregor. It's an important question.

By way of context, we have to remember that the people who break and enter into a barn are animal activists. They're not the general population that cares about animal welfare. I'm not sure that what Humane Canada is proposing would address or go any way towards mitigating the kind of activist activity we've seen.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I see, Mr. Groleau, that you want to comment.

[Marcel Groleau]

I would add one comment, Mr. MacGregor, if I may.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Of course.

[Marcel Groleau]

The vast majority of Canadian livestock sectors have already adopted codes of good practice in conjunction with the National Farm Animal Care Council, with veterinarians and with organizations working for animal welfare.

In the dairy sector, milk producers have to abide by the code set out in the Quality Milk program. The same goes for other sectors, including the pork sector. That work has already largely been done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Groleau.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We now go to the second round of questions.

Mr. Lehoux, you have five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us this afternoon.

My first question is for you, Mr. Groleau. You have placed a lot of emphasis on the psychological impact on the farming families of these incursions onto farms. You spoke at length about the Grégoire family and then you talked about a dairy farm in the Estrie. Those incidents had consequences later.

Could you tell us a little more about that, Mr. Groleau?