Agriculture Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Dr. Henry Ceelen]

Brian, I have absolutely no expertise to answer that question.

[Dr. Brian Evans]

The point I would come back to again is the facts we have talked about. There are multiple pathways by which diseases can be introduced onto the farm, and it's not always through direct contact with the animals. When we talk about other enclosures for animals, such as abattoirs or those types of situations, the importance of biosecurity globally cannot be overstated. From an economic protection standpoint, we have moved the world miles down the road, away from a country having to be free of a disease to a region or zone being free of a disease to what we call a compartment or compartmentalization.

What this means is that the biosecurity at the farm level must be linked to biosecurity in transport and at the point of slaughter and through processing. Doing that mitigates the significant economic impact that Canada and other countries have seen—

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you—

[Dr. Brian Evans]

—when diseases break out. The linkage of those biosecurity elements allows the rest of the world to continue to trade with you at a much more restricted level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Dr. Evans.

[Dr. Brian Evans]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Hopefully things are good, Mr. Weese. I'm glad this is June and not January outside. Thanks for sticking with us.

We'll now go to the second round.

Go ahead, Mr. Epp. You have five minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses.

Dr. Evans, I'll come back to that point in a bit. I want to start with the Chicken Farmers of Canada.

Canada received its negligible risk status for bovine spongiform encephalopathy, BSE, from the OIE just recently, 20 years after an outbreak. Of course, we're quite familiar with the economic harm that occurred. I assume that a similar harm could occur with our swine industry with either African swine fever or PRRS.

I know that chicken isn't traded to the same extent, but can you comment on the impact of an outbreak of avian influenza on our trade relations, and even on our domestic industry?

[Lisa Bishop-Spencer]

Back in 2004, Canada suffered one of its most significant avian influenza outbreaks. I remember Dr. Evans from back then, and also from the one in 2009.

It was a very significant outbreak. It wound up that our producers in British Columbia were not allowed to restock their barns. Most of the broiler chicken, the chicken raised for meat, was able to get to market, but those farmers were not allowed to restock their barns for several months afterwards, not until we were sure the virus was under control. As a direct result, approximately 4% of the Canadian market was not served by chicken. Fortunately, under the supply management system, we were able to augment production in the rest of the country and ship it west. That wouldn't always necessarily be the case.

For us, the impact domestically is quite significant. As you indicated earlier, we don't export as much as we produce for the domestic market. We have to be very cautious with respect to animal disease. Avian influenza would probably be the most notable example in recent years of a disease that could possibly have far-reaching implications for the industry.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I'll move now to the topic that's already come up in several lines of questioning, because it's so important for us as committee members to understand this. We heard testimony from Dr. Komal that really there's a negligible risk of transmission of pathogens or transmission of disease with incidental contact. There would need to be prolonged contact between humans and animals for that to occur on-farm. We heard contradictory testimony from Dr. Jean-Pierre Vaillancourt, a professor of veterinary medicine at the Université de Montréal. We are hearing today that there are multiple pathogens.

I will ask our veterinarians to weigh in on this issue, starting with you, Dr. Weese, and then going to the CVMA. If you have contradictory positions, I'd like to hear from you both. This is important for us to understand as a committee. There are such huge implications to the potential of this risk. I think it's something we need to understand.

Scott, please go ahead.

[Dr. J. Scott Weese]

There's no absolute with infectious diseases. That's the big issue. We can't say zero. I could say that the risk, apart from mink and COVID, is probably very low. We're not going to see avian influenza introduced by someone walking onto a farm.

There are potential risks; the infectious disease risk actually is much greater to the person who goes on the farm, who may pick up something there. There are risks, and there are always going to be risks when people come in. They're going to be higher if somebody is going from farm to farm. They're going to be higher depending on the type of contact. You don't need long or prolonged contact; you need the right bacteria and virus parasite for transmission. However, the odds of a person bringing that in are really low.

We're certainly not going to say it's zero; I'm going to say it's quite low. There are other more important reasons for preventing trespass than biosecurity, even though I think biosecurity still is an important issue.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

We do know that farm-to-farm movement of activists did occur, from an Abbotsford hog farm to an Alberta turkey farm. That is something that we have already experienced.

Dr. Evans or Dr. Ceelen, would you like to weigh in, please?

[Dr. Brian Evans]

I would echo to a large degree what Scott said. We talked earlier about lessons learned. One lesson everyone should learn when you're talking about infectious diseases is that you never say “never” and you never say “always”. That's the reality of the species interaction with various pathogens.

Again, I believe that what we're talking about from a biosecurity and animal disease perspective is what we refer to as a low-probability, high-consequence event. As I say, we had the experience in Canada of foot-and-mouth in Saskatchewan. Whether it was infected clothing or boots that introduced the foot-and-mouth virus in material adhering to the clothing or whether, as has also been reported, an infected sausage got dropped into a feed trough and was consumed by pigs, either way, the individual was on the farm for reasonable periods of time working with those animals.

I gave the example of influenza in 2009 and the 22 countries that had it in swine populations, and the five countries that ended up with it in turkey populations—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. For mink, I think it would be the same thing. Mink and COVID would be along the same lines.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Epp. Thank you, Dr. Evans.

We'll move on to Mr. Blois for five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Blois.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'll start with Mr. de Graaf because he's the hometown fella on the committee, being from the Annapolis Valley.

Nick, let me thank you for your leadership here locally through Chicken Farmers of Canada. You talked about some of the work that's already ongoing.

I know that we have a good relationship. Maybe we're fortunate that there haven't been some of these events in our neck of the woods. Has there been a high incidence of these types of sit-ins that you've alluded to, or have we largely escaped that in this area right now?

[Nick de Graaf]

If you're talking specifically about Nova Scotia, I would say that we've probably sidestepped that. That's why this interests me so much. At the end of the day, if it's across the country, there's no easy spot to go to, so to speak. That's what my concern is, for sure.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I know that we're fortunate in the sense that there haven't been a whole lot of incidents of this, but when you speak to your other producers across the country, do they explain what they do? I can only imagine that I'm a farmer and that I look out my window and see that there's a large group of people who may be going into my barn, not knowing what this could do to my livelihood.

Do they explain what they normally would do? Do they call the police? Do you have any experience that you might have offhand from your fellow members?

[Nick de Graaf]

Yes, just from conversations.

The first thing is that there are plenty of signs about biosecurity on a chicken farm. They're there. They're loud. They're right in front of you at the driveway. What's happening here? Why are these people ignoring the signs? Most people obey signs.

Then, from what I understand, it's to call the police, and then the police don't know what to do, really. I think that's probably the answer to your question right there.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Just for your benefit, Nick, we've been hearing different testimony. Part of the challenge, of course, is understanding that although it is laudable to try to avoid the spread of a biosecurity risk resulting from the activity of individuals who are trespassing on a farm, the question, as Mr. Evans has talked about, is the compliance and how we enforce it and what tools might already exist. We've heard from other members that perhaps police may or may not have the tools available to them.

Can I ask about the CFIA? This has been a key piece of the testimony, as well—its ability to enforce this. I know that the CFIA, for example, would go to Victor Oulton's farm because there's a processing element. How often does the CFIA show up at your particular farm, or would it be more like at Eden Valley, at the processing side?

[Nick de Graaf]

With regard to the CFIA on my farm, as a chicken producer, I don't think they've ever been here in person. I do also have an on-farm feed mill, and they do come to audit that, so they are on farm for that, for a different reason. Mostly they are at the processing facility. They are not hands-on here.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay, I appreciate that. One of the things that I think could be a recommendation from this committee in the days ahead is how we can educate people about some of the biosecurity risks.

I want to go to some other witnesses, but first I'll go on record and thank you, Nick, for your leadership locally.

Mr. Evans, you talked about compliance. We just heard from Mr. de Graaf that the CFIA is more at the processing level. You spoke about this a little earlier, but can you just...? I have 35 seconds here that I want to allocate to you. Can you talk about some of the challenges you see in terms of having that handled through that agency?

[Dr. Brian Evans]

Thank you, honourable member.

Quite quickly, I would say that it would be a challenge for the CFIA at two levels.

First, as I say, the type of training that you're looking for in investigating a potential situation related to a trespass is an entirely different set of skills than what is normally applied in either a food safety investigation or an animal health disease investigation because of, as I said before, the difference between a deliberate threat versus something that's accidental or incidental.

The other component—the challenge for the CFIA—has been mentioned. The CFIA is not on farms every day. Unfortunately, the CFIA's normal situation to be on a farm is usually as part of an investigation. Coming back to what Henry and others have testified, so much of this is about private veterinarian involvement with producers at the farm level to sculpt their plans specifically to the risk and hazards that are known to exist on that farm.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Evans, I have about 15 or 20 seconds left. I guess I would say, if I could table this, is that part of the element is strict liability versus absolute liability. Where this is a strict liability offence, there has to be some level of intent, notwithstanding Mr. de Graaf's comments about some of the signage and awareness. I think that's an important element. Perhaps you can speak on that if someone else asks the question.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Unfortunately, we're out of time.

Thank you, Mr. Blois, and thank you, Dr. Evans.

Mr. Perron, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.