Evidence of meeting #114 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Senior Economist, Markets and Trade Division, Social and Economic Development Work Stream, FAO, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
I would like to add one point to it, which is to strive to discuss these issues in the context of global institutions. You don't want to be part of a discussion when one country sets up a certain system and then another country needs to fit into it. It's a global externality. As I mentioned in my testimony, a global externality requires a global solution.
We need to discuss common methodologies on how to arrive there and then, once there is a common understanding, it will be easier to arrive at solutions that will fit more people or more countries.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Thank you very much.
Mr. Perron, go ahead for six minutes, please.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here.
Personally, I'm very interested in reciprocity of standards. One of the major problems that local producers are constantly pointing out is that Canada is letting foreign products into the country. The exporting countries don't have the same standards and use products that are banned in Canada for phytosanitary reasons. In addition, the products sell at a lower cost, which puts our local producers at a disadvantage. Unfair competition has been established for a long time, and it is not easy to adjust that.
Ms. Bedard‑Haughn, how do we go about implementing that? In your opinion, am I right in saying that a problem currently exists? How can we make an adjustment without increasing the cost of food?
Senior Economist, Markets and Trade Division, Social and Economic Development Work Stream, FAO, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
If there were a bit more of an international setting.... I will go first, Angela, if you agree.
I would hope that all of the imports that are entering Canada are satisfying the SPS requirements. Those are the minimum standards or parameters that have to be satisfied to ensure that the imports are not dangerous for health, or other things. There is a set of SPS standards, sanitary and phytosanitary measures, that the imports coming to Canada have to satisfy.
I am not sure there would be a problem. It is possible that there is a perceived problem where the farmers might perceive that the quality, for example, of environmental standards incorporated.... The environment is not part of an SPS measure, but it is possible that the farmers perceive that the environment in which those products are produced is in fact entering into the SPS measure.
This is a discussion on how products are produced, which might or might not impact the quality. That's for a different hearing. That would require additional discussion on how those standards are actually created.
Dean and Professor, College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan
I would echo much of that in terms of the need for further discussion around making sure those standards are implemented. I know that's a conversation that you've been having around this table with regard to that particular concern.
It is also important as part of those discussions that it's coming from a place of evidence-based decision-making. Whatever those standards are that are being implemented, they should be looking at the latest in science, and we should be making those comparisons.
I do think that, as we continue to improve and enhance our capabilities with respect to digital agriculture data management, there are going to be more and more tools for that type of accountability and measurement, which can be one of the bigger challenges you might be hearing about from your producers.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I don't have much time left.
We agree on the importance of evidence. Let's take the example of carrots, which is very easy to understand. The formulation for linuron was altered, and that new formulation was not yet registered for use in Canada, but it was in the United States. Our producers couldn't use it. So we almost ended up in a situation where we would have imported carrots grown using a product that was not registered here, which would have put our producers at a disadvantage. Again last summer, an overwhelming quantity of carrots from China entered Canada, whereas they were banned in the United States, to protect farmland. There are a lot of examples, and I agree with what both of you are saying. Evidence is needed.
Then there is a sub-question related to authorization for use. Since Canada's market is smaller than the markets of our trading partners, international companies don't come and invest here, first and foremost, to get their products approved in Canada. Instead, they will have them authorized for use in Europe or the United States. This is a problem for Canada.
Do you think it is possible to establish international collaboration, without reducing quality standards, in order to share the authorization steps with a number of partners?
The question is for both of you.
Senior Economist, Markets and Trade Division, Social and Economic Development Work Stream, FAO, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
Thank you for the questions.
They are international certification bodies, right? They are international standard-setting bodies. For example, we have the Codex Alimentarius that sets up the standards for the food products.
I am not particularly aware.... I will admit that I don't follow the current Canadian markets in great detail, so I cannot comment on this particular case, but they are international standard-setting bodies that are of assistance, and I'm sure that Canada participates—
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Tothova. I'm sorry to interrupt.
Ms. Bedard‑Haughn, can you answer in a few seconds?
Dean and Professor, College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan
Yes, I think that some of the issues I'm hearing about here today probably reflect more strongly the issues of how things are being measured and looked at as they come into the country, as opposed to a border carbon adjustment piece.
It's the existing framework that needs to be looked at in terms of how those standards are being applied.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Thank you very much, Mr. Perron.
Now we'll go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes, please.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to the witnesses for this testimony today. It's been very interesting to me. I have to admit that I'm not a regular member of this committee, and this is all very new to me, so forgive me if my questions are a little simple, I guess.
My first question is for Dr. Bedard-Haughn. I was surprised to hear that there hasn't been sufficient research done. We know trade and trade relationships are complex—they are in many different settings, but your testimony was a lot about how there wasn't enough research. We didn't have the information. We didn't have the data to make informed decisions.
Why don't we have that data yet? Why has this taken so long? Obviously, carbon pricing has been in place for a long time. Are there adequate resources for researchers in Canada from the federal and provincial governments to accomplish this?
Dean and Professor, College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan
That's an excellent question and a suitable interpretation, I think, of my testimony in this context.
If we look at the research landscape across Canada, we've done a lot of research on different regions. That's how I can say with a high degree of confidence that there is huge regional variability. One of my concerns, then, is if we start to look at something that has federal implications, how do we roll that up?
If I were to ask what the similarities and differences are between potatoes produced in Lethbridge, Alberta versus on Prince Edward Island, or if I look at crop production on the Prairies versus southern Ontario, those are some of the challenges that I would say we have.
The other challenge we have in terms of collecting and bringing all of this data together is the sheer size of our country and actually capturing some of that variability across space and time. The cost of getting data that we can be very confident in is very high, because in this context.... Compared to other markets or industries where we might be looking at such a thing, like a product or an industry where there's maybe a factory, there are walls around it and, yes, there are lots of things flowing in and out, it's a bit more defined. We have more control over it.
There are all these other climate variables that influence what the carbon cost of a particular commodity in a year might be if the carbon intensity were to vary. How much drying had to be done on that grain? What fertilizer was necessary in a particular year? What other kinds of considerations had to go into that?
It's that complexity, and at a national level, it's very hard to bring all those data sets together if we want to roll this up into a single federal framework.
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
When I hear you say that it is costly and that it is complex, I understand that.
I just returned from Ireland, and, of course, their trade relationships are very complex too, because Brexit means that they're part of the European Union, but the U.K. is not. There are complexities around the world. Ours is different because of our size and our federated system.
Are there examples where this work is being done and it is working very well, or where they have done the research and have some lessons we can learn?
Dean and Professor, College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan
With respect to other countries, perhaps in the EU, I would defer to Ms. Tothova.
I would argue that it would be much more straightforward in a smaller geographic region, because even though you have the complex diversity of the markets or what's being exported, you don't have to layer on the geographic complexity that means that carbon intensity looks very different for the same commodity in different parts of the country.
The U.S. would be facing the same issues we are, as would, most likely, Australia. If we look across the EU as a whole, it would be different versus an individual country within the EU.
NDP
Senior Economist, Markets and Trade Division, Social and Economic Development Work Stream, FAO, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
Yes, indeed.
In the EU, let me start by saying that looking at the carbon intensity in this setting is something that's relatively new. We have spoken a lot about trade, and we have a lot of trade data. Trying to detect the carbon content in specific products, taking into account how those products or commodities—if you wish, if it's easier to think in terms of commodities—are produced and what steps should be included, is a relatively new undertaking.
There are ways to do it. There are methodologies that are being developed. Those methodologies could differ between the countries, but there has been progress.
In the EU, for example, if you look at Ireland, the conditions there will be very different from conditions in Italy. You are producing different products. There is the diversification element. There is the question of irrigation. There are many factors, but I remain optimistic that there is quite a bit of thinking going on along these lines.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow
Thanks, Ms. McPherson.
We'll go back to the Conservatives.
Ms. Rood, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
I want to ask Ms. Bedard-Haughn how the introduction of the CBAM might conflict with Canada's broader efforts to promote agricultural innovation and sustainability, undermining the economic viability of the sector?
Dean and Professor, College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan
That is a fantastic question, and I would say that it's one of the big concerns that we have here in Canada. We tend to be very innovative and relatively early adopters of a lot of technology that is driving agriculture forward, so the concern is that we develop approaches that are tested and validated through evidence as being more sustainable and less carbon intense. I'm referring to crop breeding or other types of novel crop inputs that then, in turn, are not recognized globally as providing the advantages that they do.
It's probably one of my bigger concerns that, if we let this be driven elsewhere in perhaps less innovative areas, more innovation-averse areas, we would end up undermining our potential. Given the changes that are happening globally and the food security challenges that we have, I think we need to be using everything that's in our tool kit.
That's an important question and part of why I think that Canada needs to take a leadership role in these early discussions and be proactive rather than reactive.
Conservative
Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you very much. I have a follow-up question.
Are you concerned that the universities' own innovation research could be disincentivized?