Agriculture Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Absolutely. I agree 100%.

Ms. Levasseur, approximately how many of your members will have to bear the costs of upgrading grade crossings in Quebec? Have you done the analysis?

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

Over the past 18 months, we have received a number of requests. We've managed to settle a number of cases amicably, but there are still about five major cases of Quebec producers who will have to invest amounts similar to the ones mentioned earlier.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Is the situation the same as for my colleagues in Ontario? Did your members receive a letter in July telling them that they were going to be billed $600,000 or $2 million?

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

Yes, they received a letter this summer proposing new agreements that would make them responsible for insurance, the cost of the work, and so on.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Would it be possible to get copies of those letters? I obviously respect farmers' privacy. You can delete the names.

I think it would be helpful for the committee to get copies of those letters.

Mr. Spoelstra, I would ask you the same. Maybe we can get copies of those letters. I don't want to see the names—just to respect privacy—but I'd love to make sure that we give those to the minister.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We now go to Mr. Perron for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here, both online and in person.

Ms. Levasseur, in your opening remarks, you talked about the upgrade program that is finished.

Can you give us some details about the program? How much money was involved? Is it a program that was put in place when the regulations changed? Is it a long-standing program?

I would like everything to be clear.

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

If I may, I will ask my colleague Mr. Tougas to answer that question. He's probably more familiar with the intricacies of it.

[David Tougas, Coordinator, Business Economics, Union des producteurs agricoles]

It's a long-standing program, but I can't say for how long. The program has mainly been used by municipalities, but private landowners can still use it for upgrading level crossings, for example.

As Ms. Levasseur mentioned in her remarks, there have been no funds available for several months. There is no longer any way to access those amounts. When companies need to do upgrading work that has to be done on farmers' land, farmers have to foot the entire bill.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Correct me if I'm wrong. From what I understand, there was a long-standing program for upgrading grade crossings, but when the regulations changed and requirements increased, the program came to an end.

You had access to the program when you didn't need it, and now that you do need it, it no longer exists. This is what we call government consistency.

I don't know if you have a comment on that.

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

You said it.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's one of your recommendations.

What justification are you being given for the fact that, as of November 28, there will be new requirements for you to be able to cross a railway on your isolated land with your tractor?

I'd like to understand.

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

I think this is a perfect example of blind regulation. No one has taken the time to distinguish between the risk on a public road and the risk on private land, where there is little to no traffic and certainly no public traffic since it is used solely by the owner.

I think the regulations were made to apply everywhere without taking the time to find ways to adapt them to places where the risk is lower.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Reviewing it intelligently and adjusting the requirements might also be a recommendation.

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

That is what we asked for when we were talking about finding alternatives to address the safety upgrades, such as using a whistle. Before starting the meeting today, we wondered how we can manage to track planes in the sky everywhere in the world but not be able to use our telephones to find out when a train is coming.

There are ways to find solutions, with modern technology, or to improve visibility. For example, more plant growth can be removed from a wider area near level crossings. There are all sorts of ways to do things that would improve safety without necessarily using barriers or traffic lights and delivering electricity two miles from the road to the middle of a field.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Right.

To your knowledge, are there a lot of accidents at level crossings on agricultural land? Is there some justification for this excessive regulation?

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

My colleague, Mr. Tougas, will be able to add to my answer, if he likes, but to my knowledge there have been no accidents involving a train and an agricultural producer in recent years.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Historically, the owner of the railway is the one responsible for maintaining its own network and enabling agricultural producers to cross it. That was mentioned by several witnesses earlier.

I understand this has to be qualified based on whether or not a property is split in two. I have two sub‑questions on that.

Does this distinction, whether or not the land is split in two, still exist? As well, why is it that they are suddenly able to charge agricultural producers for the cost?

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

I am not sure I understood your first question properly, but charging the costs to agricultural producers is nothing new. The agreements that were made in the 19th century, when the railway came through, were to that effect.

However, the requirements were not the same and it didn't work the same way. It has really never been altered over the years, as is also the case for a number of old laws or regulations that are never updated because they are no longer useful. The result today is that we have a problem.

Regarding the first question, you would have to explain what you mean by the distinction between—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In the committee's briefing note, it says that if the level crossing splits the land in two, the railway company's costs, if it is not splitting the land in two—

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

We have to understand that it is not necessarily entirely on the agricultural producer's land.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Well done, Mr. Perron. You kept to your speaking time. You spoke for an extra five seconds. Thank you.

Mr. Boulerice, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us today for this important study.

I want to start by admitting that I am an MP from Montreal. I represent Rosemont—La‑Petite‑Patrie. Level crossings, for me, are something I need to ensure the safety of the people I represent near the Rosemont metro station. That is an entirely different situation.

I find the committee's study fascinating because I am learning a lot. Upgrading level crossings on agricultural land and the resulting financial responsibility rest on the shoulders of the people you represent, all because of some old agreements and old regulations that date from the 19th century and have never been updated. The power of the railway companies in Canada is somewhat staggering.

Ms. Levasseur, you spoke about five unresolved cases in Quebec where the costs could range from $600,000 to $2 million every time. What does that represent for your members? What repercussions does it have on the very survival of some farms or on the agricultural production of members you represent?

[Stéphanie Levasseur]

I don't know the names of each of those producers, but more than half of our members in Quebec have incomes of $100,000 or less per year. Given those circumstances, a bill of $600,000 to $2 million for upgrading a bit of railway track that is not even as wide as the committee room and is used five or ten or 15 times a year is somewhat exorbitant.

That can mean abandoning or completely losing access to the parcel of land on the other side of the track because the producer does not have the resources to pay for the work. They have neither the resources nor the capacity to repay a loan to have that kind of work done. The lots on the other side of the track might be large or might be small.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

As you said, the regulations are blind and do not take into account the real agricultural situation of the people you represent.

I found it interesting when you questioned how we don’t have the technology to see whether a train is coming. In urban areas, the situation is completely different, with a crowd of people. As well, as you said, there have been no accidents or incidents.

Mr. Spoelstra, for the people you represent, what is your estimate of the cost of upgrading the level crossings? How many cases are there?