Agriculture Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I think that's a great way to incentivize farmers to get some recognition. While this committee isn't taking care of that, I think the environment committee is looking at it. We're not all the way there yet, but I think we'll get to a place where it's comfortable for farmers.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair? Is it about a minute?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You have a minute and a half.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thanks for presenting the bill. I know this is an important bill. I'd be lying if I said I didn't hear from farmers. We may disagree on how to get there, but I think this presents an option we can work with. I know our committee members will be able to get to a satisfactory place.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thanks.

I think another important point to note is.... For example, in my area—I know your area would be similar, in some ways—we have some significant rivers and streams in Huron-Bruce County. I always say that farmers are the last line of defence in making sure that the rivers and streams are kept clean and fresh. Everything that flows in the rivers and streams, in my riding, flows into Lake Huron. Between making a profit and getting their crops off, they're also very careful about how they apply their manure and do their tile drainage, etc., in order to maintain the efficacy of the creeks and streams that flow into the rivers.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Drouin.

Since we have a couple of seconds before we go to Mr. Perron, the Sergeant-at-Arms has sent out an email with a weather warning and tornado watch. There are instructions in your email. Perhaps it's in your office email and not your P9 one. An emergency alert announced on the Hill outlines some instructions on what we're supposed to do. Whoever's office is the closest with wine and beer in the fridge...I just assume that's the place we go to.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[An hon. member]

Shelter in place.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Exactly.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lobb, thank you for being here today.

When we receive alerts like the one we just got, we know it is high time for action on climate change. It is important.

Mr. Lobb, we also studied Bill C‑206, a very similar bill. We talked a lot about possible alternatives. Can you tell us what the current alternatives are for farmers, specifically for grain drying?

It is relevant to talk about the carbon tax to the extent that farmers have a choice. Do farmers have a choice currently, specifically for grain drying?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I don't think it's an economically viable choice. I know Francis mentioned some of the other new technologies. I don't disagree with the potential they may have, but, in reality, we're a long way off from mass adoption. Certainly, with the supply chain constraints we have, nothing is going to make a difference today.

You know the vulnerabilities of a fall harvest: being able to get it in on time, before the rain flies and there's mud on the ground. The ability to get it in, dry it and put it in the bins has a very small window of time. Propane and natural gas deliver the drying capacity to get it in on time. In time, if there are other viable options, we should embrace them, study them and do pilot projects, as was described. In the mid to near terms, maybe even with a 10-year time horizon, we're still looking at the traditional way of drying crops, I think.

There's a salt evaporator plant in my riding that evaporates salt taken out from under the lake. It's all dried mechanically. If you go out to the desert in the southern U.S.A., they dry it all in the desert. We don't have a desert climate to dry it in, but anything's possible.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

If I understand you correctly, taxing greenhouse gas emissions from this process would not allow for a technology transfer. It would increase production costs, reduce the profit margin, and sooner or later increase food prices.

Is that correct?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Are you saying that, if you do one, you can't do the other? Is that what you're saying?

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Without an alternative, if we impose a tax on these processes at this time, it would simply increase production costs and reduce farmers' profit margins since they have no other options.

If there is an incentive for people to buy a smaller vehicle, for instance, people have a choice. In this case, however, farmers do not have a choice at this time. That is what I understood.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Well—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That would be my argument: that for now, there's not a choice.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Bill C‑206 refers to heating buildings. That was not included in the bill initially. We had talked about it, but it was not included. It is in the bill now.

For heating, are there more alternatives or is it the same situation? I am talking about heating buildings.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

If you're heating a hog barn or a broiler barn or a layer barn, there really are no options today.

You could try to incorporate some green energy to supplement that, but at this point in time, it's the propane tank hitch beside your barn, or if you're fortunate enough to have a natural gas line pass your farm, the natural gas feeds into it. Being realistic, those are the only two viable options out there today.

Electricity is always another option. It's a more expensive option, but again, there are grid restraints. For example, say in the province of Ontario, once you get past 2025, there will be a legitimately short supply of electricity, and quite likely grid capacity as well.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I understand your argument about the grid. This may surprise you, but in some parts of Quebec input current can be quite expensive. Changing input current is very expensive.

Do you think the government could introduce an incentive so people could access electricity to heat buildings, for instance, in the coming years?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I believe overall that it doesn't matter the political stripe of the government that will be leading the country going forward, because we have to have a larger discussion about food sovereignty in our country and the priority therein. Whether it's this bill, or it's beefing up a grid to be able to do whatever we need, or food processing or being able to bring in qualified labour to process our food in this country, we need to have almost like a national statement of the priority of food sovereignty in our country and hold it at the very highest.

If there are programs or there are initiatives, that should be dovetailed into the priority that our country sets forth.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You have 10 seconds, Mr. Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I will speak again later, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Lobb.

I think we can all agree that this is one of the best committees, if not the best, and we're all trying to work together here and make lives better for farmers.

In the last Parliament, it was nice to see Bill C-206 clear the House of Commons. We delivered it to the Senate, but unfortunately it was interrupted by an election.

However, maybe you could tell me what some of your big takeaways were when you looked at the journey that Bill C-206 took through the legislative process. What were your big takeaways, and how did that influence how you drafted Bill C-234?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think one of the things—and you can provide your own input on it—was the part about what you were trying to accomplish by amending the pricing act in and around the grain drying. I think it was a little ambiguous there, and it's not a critique of Philip. However, that's why we specifically included grain drying, to give some context as to why that should go from an exclusion to an inclusion.

As well, with the Senate bill—I think it was Bill S-215—for the livestock barns, it was just to recognize the huge bills and the economic realities they're facing with them.