Agriculture Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I haven't looked at Bill S-215. Did you borrow the language? Is it basically a combination...?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes. I didn't footnote the fact that I pretty well stole from it, but yes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

There's no such thing as plagiarism in politics. If it's a good idea, you run with it.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It's just trying to lift good ideas, I guess. Yes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

We have had a lot of good conversations around the committee table. We realize that a price on carbon is there to incentivize a change in behaviour, but it doesn't work very well if there aren't commercially viable alternatives available. We've already had discussions on the committee table today about that.

If you look at the parent act, the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act, the government drafters took the time to spell out exemptions. They made mention of what a qualifying farm fuel is and eligible farming machinery. In your mind, why do you think they put those exemptions in the parent act? What is the main reasoning behind that?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think it was the reality of there being nothing else economically viable.

I can give you an example from my own personal life. I had a Husqvarna chainsaw for 20 years—pretty much my entire adult life. It was a two-stroke engine. What do I have now? I have a Makita chainsaw with two 18- or 24-volt batteries. I can take them out and put them in my drill, then take them out and put them in my chainsaw. When I'm done with that, I can put them in my Makita grass trimmer. When I'm done that, I can use them in my Makita battery-driven blower.

Those aren't options for drying grain in agriculture today. Believe me, if farmers had the viable option of putting one of Elon Musk's beautiful batteries into their vehicle, I know they would do it. It would only make sense if they could operate it for 24 hours in a row. Those options aren't available.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I know from talking with Philip, in the last Parliament, about one thing that led to Bill C-206. We heard mention of the so-called “harvest from hell”—the really wet harvest that forced a lot of farmers to run their grain dryers overtime. It really ballooned their costs.

The irony, though, is that those extreme wet-weather events are going to become more and more frequent, thanks to climate change. A common refrain we hear at this committee is that farmers are on the front line of climate change.

In the time you took to draft Bill C-234, did you reach out to any of the farmers being impacted in that way and seeing increasing frequency in the use of their grain dryers?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

It really depends on what year it is and how much drying.... Sometimes, you can almost take your beans in on your V-Bin, right into your bin, and it's hardly anything. A couple of falls ago, however, the corn was almost coming in like gum, in some cases. It really depends on the year.

That's why I say the use of propane or natural gas for drying is the most robust and efficient, in a time crunch. You have literally millions of dollars. I always say that, if you knew how much money it costs to make a dollar in agriculture, you'd never do it. However, people love to do it. It's been passed down through generations, and it's a struggle they love.

You can go to any farm in Huron County, Bruce County or anywhere else, and they're beautiful and well maintained. If they can make an investment in an innovation that reduces emissions and increases their profit margins, it's a no-brainer. They will do it.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I have one quick final question.

I live in British Columbia, so my province wouldn't be affected by this legislation. For any of the provinces with their own system in place, do you know whether provisions exist in some of the provincial legislation for grain drying, or will this establish a precedent for them to follow?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's a great question.

I'll admit that, in my own life, I'm busy enough and haven't had time to become an expert in the other provinces. However, it would be a worthwhile investigation in the other provinces.

I'm not quite sure.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor.

It's now back to the Conservatives.

Mr. Lehoux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lobb, thank you for presenting this bill, which is truly important in order to support agriculture, which feeds our fellow citizens and many other people on the planet. It is important if we want agriculture to remain competitive.

I would like a few clarifications about the parliamentary budget officer's conclusions regarding Bill C‑234.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I've thought about that. I think, for this year, it would cost farmers about $54 million, a significant amount of money.

Again, I haven't gone through and checked the Parliamentary Budget Officer's spreadsheets for exactly how he comes to that number. I've worked with him on the government operations committee and the shipbuilding strategy. He has his own formula to calculate that from.

It is a significant number. You can go from that one example of one hog farmer for one month having a $2,900 bill. Don't look at the totality of it. Look at how much it's costing each farmer up and down the county roads. It is significant.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

On another matter, I would like to talk about alternatives for drying. That includes grain drying, which is perhaps different from heating buildings.

This morning, I was talking with a farmer who uses biomass. That said, it is not a solution that completely eliminates the use of gas or propane. This farmer also pointed out that, when using biomass, it also has to be transported. In a sector with a lot of grain production, there is not that much biomass nearby. This farmer raised this problem.

Do you share that view?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I've toured a few anaerobic digesters through the years, one in London and one actually in my own riding. He has a large beef cattle feedlot. He has his manure in one tank, and in the other he has scrap food shipped in from all over the region. They mix it together. He has two converted diesel Cat engines that go off of methane.

I mean, you can do it, but it's a tremendous, tremendous cost to have just one farm like that in one area. Now, that was good, because there were some at-risk small little lakes, so it kind of cleaned them up pretty nice.

So it can be done, but it's quite a cost. You'd have to really put the economics behind it on that one.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

Ultimately, the cost negatively affects competition when it comes to reselling grain.

In all your discussions with various industry and other stakeholders, did you get any negative feedback on this bill? Did you meet people who shared some of their concerns? Or the opposite?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes, I did. To be honest with you, some of the larger more commercial operations—they would have grain drying and an elevator and maybe offer more products—would like to have it in this bill as well, that they be included, like legitimate commercial drying operations. We looked at trying to put that into the bill, but it pretty well doubled the size of it. It was pretty cumbersome. I thought there was probably a zero per cent chance that it would get passed through committee or even in the House of Commons. I thought we had to be realistic. We're trying to help farmers.

I'll go back to one of the comments I made before. Farmers who are on farm are price-takers. Commercial operations, although I would love to cut their carbon tax, have the ability to massage the numbers. I'm not saying they're padding their numbers, but they do have the ability to pass some of the costs along, whereas a farmer on a concession line just takes what they can get. You know that.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You have 20 seconds left, Mr. Lehoux.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I would simply add something to what my colleague said earlier about the 12% rebate. Regardless of the figure, increasing costs have a negative effect on the competitiveness of our businesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Be very quick, Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes.

Even on $1 million of eligible expenses, it's not even $1,800. You can see the disparity with the current program.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Merci.

Ms. Taylor Roy, you have five minutes, please.