Agriculture Committee on Nov. 28th, 2022

[Dr. Kanwal Kochhar, Senior Director, Food Import and Export Division, Canadian Food Inspection Agency]

Thank you, Kathleen.

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for the question.

As Kathleen mentioned, for any new imports from a new country or a new establishment, CFIA conducts full inspections on at least 10 consignments from that particular establishment, in this case, Ukraine.

When the certificate is approved, full inspection will be conducted. When I say “full inspection”, it basically means visual inspection as well as organoleptic inspection.

At that time, CFIA inspectors also take samples for microbiological contamination, chemical residue contamination and species identification. At that time, only when CFIA confirms that the inspection is satisfactory will the consignment be released to the importer. Should there be a problem with any of the consignments, CFIA, of course, works for the competent authority and takes actions as necessary.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I understood that you—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You have about 15 seconds.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I'll try to wrap up, then. I understood you to say that the first 10 shipments of exports would be tested and that there would be a risk-based assessment approach after that. Is that correct, Ms. Kochhar?

[Dr. Kanwal Kochhar]

That's correct. There are 10 inspections from each establishment. In this case, three establishments will be approved, so at least 30 shipments will go through full inspection.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Now we go to Mr. Perron for six minutes, please.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for making themselves available for us today.

I have a lot of things to address in a short time, and I would like you to give me brief answers, if you are able to.

I would like to begin with you, Mr. Rosser.

In the last round of questions, you said you estimated the damage caused to supply-managed sectors to be negligible. Of course, we are talking about damage caused so far. It is important that committee members understand that, since import authorizations are currently being validated. In fact, that is the reason why we are doing this study.

There are fears that there will be a major impact on supply-managed sectors. Other witnesses have said they were monitoring the situation very closely and they were going to take the industry into account in responding. I was happy to hear, in your opening remarks, that you have been in contact with industry people.

What will the reaction time be if it is found that large quantities of goods from Ukraine are getting ready to enter Canada?

[Tom Rosser]

I'm going to try to answer as briefly as possible.

As I said earlier, there is a bit of uncertainty about the exact volume of goods that might enter Canada. Given the logistical difficulties attributable to distance and other factors, I am assuming that the volume of goods will not be very large as compared to the size of the market. However, we are going to continue following the situation closely and talking to the stakeholders...

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'm sorry to cut you off, Mr. Rosser, but time is limited.

You say you are not expecting a large volume. However, if a substantial volume of goods were to enter Canada, what would your reaction time be to make adjustments and talk to industry people? You stressed the three pillars of supply management, which include management of domestic production. If too many goods entered Canada, it wouldn't work.

Would you be prepared to respond quickly, taking the industry into consideration?

[Tom Rosser]

As my colleague Ms. Donohue said earlier, we are discussing the creation of a system with the Ukrainians that would let them know whether their exports to Canada are authorized and, if so, give them information about it. We have also discussed it with the industry. That would enable us to know what volume of imports to expect in fact.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to address the representatives of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Is it usual for an audit that was done in 2019 to not yet be approved to allow imports three years later, in 2022?

Is it always like that?

Is that audit still valid, three years later?

From what I understood from your answers to the earlier questions from my colleagues, there have been no new inspections in the field. You are really relying on the word of the people over there.

Have they given you reports, analyses and audits from the field?

Are you satisfied that the people in Ukraine have the necessary resources at this moment?

Let's be clear. Everyone wants to help the Ukrainians. We need to do it properly without hurting ourselves. We have concerns about bird flu. We know there are numerous cases in Poland, for example, and in several neighbouring countries, and yet there are none in Ukraine, a country being bombed that often has no electricity or water in some of the big cities. It is to be expected that people here will wonder about the Ukrainians' ability to access disinfectants, for example, and about whether there are enough veterinarians.

Do we have any data on that? My question is very broad, but I appreciate your reassuring us.

[Kathleen Donohue]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for your question.

In terms of the timing, I would say that it is not outside the norms, given the complexity of the audit system. I'm referring to the fact that we do an audit relating to both public health and animal health. In this area, it is not necessarily a lengthy audit, given that there was also the pandemic during that period.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Are you sure that people in Ukraine have access to essential basics like disinfectants and so on?

I want to stress the importance of inspections, if I may. You talked about taking ten samples. That may be sufficient for you, but we also understand people here. For several years, we have been talking with our primary trading partner, the United States, about offering a DNA test that is very simple to set up, and yet it has still not been done.

I understand that people would be concerned about the inspection that is done on things entering Canada from a country that has been destabilized and is at war.

[Kathleen Donohue]

Thank you for your question.

As I said, the Agency met with the Ukrainian representatives on October 18 to address this subject, in order to obtain assurances concerning food safety and animal health controls in Ukraine. The Ukrainian officials assured the Agency that the standards and controls relating to food safety and animal health are at the same level as at the time of the audit. They also assured us that Ukraine inspects and certifies exports in accordance with the conditions of the certificate. As well, they confirmed everything in a letter sent to the Agency after our meeting.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'm going to start with Mr. Rosser, or whomever has some of this information. I want to get clarification on something.

I get the impression that there were no poultry exports from Ukraine to Canada before the remission order. Is it correct that there's no history of any?

[Tom Rosser]

I can confirm that's correct. Yes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

What does the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement say about poultry and other supply-managed products? Is there any language there at all, or is it that they are just not allowed?

[Tom Rosser]

Mr. Chair, I will turn to my colleague Marie-Noëlle to see if she can briefly elaborate on that. As I think it was described in earlier testimony, the agreement covers a large range of goods, but it does not provide market access for supply-managed goods.

That's my understanding, but perhaps Marie-Noëlle can confirm it.

[Marie-Noëlle Desrochers]

Good evening.

From a tariff perspective, Canadians could import chicken from Ukraine within the volumes that are set in our WTO tariff rate quotas. However, for sanitary reasons and due to the lack of a certificate, there are no precedents of imports of chicken from Ukraine.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks.

Now I'll go to Ms. Donohue about the 2019 audit that was done.

I want to make sure there were audits done of poultry production sites. I was curious, because I thought there was no export-import action going on, so I was wondering why audits would be done there. I'm getting the impression they were done in 2019.

[Kathleen Donohue]

Subsequently, after the coming into effect of the Canada-Ukraine FTA, the agency received a request for access for chicken and chicken products. With that, we sent an audit team to look at three establishments in Ukraine. This audit was conducted in 2019.

As it was noted, in the subsequent intervening time, we met with Ukrainian officials this fall to see assurances they had the capacity and the controls in place that we saw and witnessed back in 2019. We received those assurances from officials. We received, in addition, these assurances in writing subsequent to our meeting.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I had a lot of questions—but Monsieur Perron asked a lot of them—about how confident we are, considering the state of affairs in Ukraine now. How can we be confident in the state of those production facilities and, in particular, the avian influenza situation?

I'm a bird ecologist by training. I know that birds fly. If we have reports coming in from around Ukraine and from Poland regularly.... I'm a bit skeptical. A lack of reporting might say more to what Ukraine is capable of doing, given the horrific situation they're in.

I'll go back to Mr. Rosser, because I tried to ask this of a previous panel and they said to ask you. It is more about the volume of poultry product that would have to come into Canada before it would impact our supply management system. I think you partly answered that by saying there is such a small amount that's expected.

How much would have to come in before that system would be impacted and before there would be, for instance, a change in price to consumers or producers? How would that price system change?