Agriculture Committee on Dec. 7th, 2022

[Chris Forbes]

Thanks for the question.

Both of these programs are relatively new, so one measure of demand is, obviously, the applications—how many stakeholders or applicants we have. As discussed when the minister was here, certainly in the clean technology program we've had a high level of demand for both the adoption stream to help producers who are adopting new technologies and the research and innovation stream. Definitely, the demand has been there for those programs.

Similarly, for the on-farm climate action fund, which is quite new, many partners stepped up. I think we're partnering with 12 organizations across the country to deliver this program, so there's lots of interest in it.

One thing we find sometimes with smaller producers, obviously, is cost-share challenges in adopting new technologies. We design these and other programs with that in mind. The specifics will vary from program to program, but we will consider alternative cost shares, or sometimes dedicate a specific stream to smaller companies or producers in order to make sure they can access the programs.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Forbes. I appreciate that.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

You have three minutes and 30 seconds.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks. Is that with the 30 seconds you added on? I'm just joking.

Mr. Morel, I have a quick question about CFIA's perspective.

We heard a bit about concerns regarding avian influenza with the goods remission order and the potential for Ukrainian frozen chicken or poultry products to come across the border into Canada. However, there's no scientific basis, as far as I can tell, for this to be a real concern. It's one thing to have a concern and it's another to suspect we might be prone to avian influenza coming in.

Is it not true that Canada already has avian influenza? Is there any evidence to suggest it could be coming from Ukraine, based on all your information?

[Philippe Morel]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, avian influenza has been very present in Canada since February 2022. It is of concern, but it's not transmitted by chickens coming into the country from a foreign country. The most likely scenario is that it's coming from migratory birds. It may have an impact on biosecurity, depending on how farms are built or whether they are next to each other. Likely it's coming from migratory birds.

We did see that in the spring, following the thread of migratory birds moving east to west. Now it's moving down south—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

To be clear, then, you're not concerned about it coming from Ukraine.

[Philippe Morel]

We're not concerned about it coming from Ukraine.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay. That's great. Thank you.

I'm going to pass the rest of my time to Ms. Taylor Roy.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

As you know, there's been a lot of discussion about the impact of climate change. We know our farmers are doing a great deal, but they are concerned about what's ahead. We've already talked about how the price on pollution is making them try to change their techniques and their technology in order to ensure that the price on pollution is kept down for each of the farms.

The National Farmers Union has spoken to me, and I'm sure to others, about the idea of a Canadian farm resiliency agency, kind of loosely based on the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration, which was a very successful federal government organization in Canada for many decades.

To have this same kind of collaboration and focus, to help farmers really share best practices, to get research and development, to talk about all the different programs and to have a united front, because there are so many individual farms, as you know, what are your thoughts about an agency such as that to help our farmers continue their work on combatting climate change?

[Chris Forbes]

Thanks for the question. I think it's an important one.

Without commenting on the specifics of an agency, I would say that we do a lot, along with the provinces. Agriculture Canada has 20 research centres across the country. We have research on the ground with producers and our research centres, and also through the living labs program, through which, along with groups of producers, we actually kind of co-develop research into best management practices.

Provinces are on the ground as well. I think it's actually that combination of our own science together with provincial programming. Given the differences across the country in terms of needs that are very regional and needs that are very specific to regions, I think the model we have is pretty strong.

Now, could it be improved? There's probably always room for improvement, but I think we have a lot of the building blocks and focus right now to support producers.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes, and —

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Forbes.

Thank you, Ms. Taylor Roy. Don't worry: You had a few extra seconds so Mr. Forbes could finish his thought.

Mr. Perron, you now have the floor.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good evening.

I'd like to provide some context for Mr. Turnbull: I think the concerns submitted by producers and the industry during our study last week were legitimate. Of course, there is much less risk with a frozen product, but the risk still exists at the processing stage.

Our point was not to say that this decision is not based on science, but that it represents a new loophole in supply management, allowed by a government that always promises us that this is the last loophole and that there will never be another.

Mr. Morel, you will not be surprised by my first question: why did you not wait for the committee's report before authorizing the import? This authorization was not in force last week, when we were doing the study. The next day, however, it came into force, before we finished our work, which I would like to understand.

[Philippe Morel]

I don't think there was any coincidence. The process to allow the import of chickens went through its normal course. The process took longer because of COVID. The assessments were done in 2019. Since then, there has been an exchange of documentation with the authorities and responsible persons in Ukraine. There was no rush; we did not receive any request to speed up the process of issuing permits.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Morel, with all due respect, this is what I understand from your response. You were doing your studies and your normal procedures.

Today, even though parliamentarians have launched a study on the issue at the request of the industry and we accelerated the work in November to give the authorization, you continue your work and you put forward your elements without taking them into account.

[Philippe Morel]

What I am explaining is that the process is based on science and information exchange, not on political or administrative requests, which would be at a higher level. If the committee had asked us to wait, it is likely that we would have assessed this request as we must.

However, the important thing remains that this is a neutral process and it has to be neutral. There is no authorization process at the level of senior officials in the agency. It's really an administrative process between scientists and inspectors who assess the safety of the processes in place in the exporting country to ensure that the quality of the imported food meets the criteria of the Safe Food for Canadians Act.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

All right.

Thank you for your honest answer. I naively thought that this would be taken care of, but I take note that it will have to be requested next time. I would like to inform you that the perception from the outside was not positive. We feel that we are working for nothing.

Respectfully again, is it worth our reporting, or is the decision made and the authorization will be valid until June? If our report included proposals and recommendations, such as to do an additional inspection, would they be taken into account?

[Philippe Morel]

When risk measures need to be taken into account or new information is communicated to us, we obviously take into consideration all the information that is made available to us.

The announcement that was made in June by the Prime Minister was not just about the import of Ukrainian chicken, but a series of measures. Chicken is only one of the products affected. It has an impact because of the authorization that was requested by Ukraine in 2019 and granted not so long ago.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you for your reply.

Mr. Forbes, you were asked earlier about the surcharge on Russian fertilizer. Did I understand correctly that we know where the tax is collected, but we don't know the precise amount?

[Chris Forbes]

Since my department is not responsible for the tax, I said I had no figures to provide to you.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Very well.

Do you believe that issuing a tax rebate order to reimburse producers could work?

[Chris Forbes]

The first question is who paid the tariffs. It wasn't the producers who gave the government the amounts collected. The rebate should be given to the people who paid the tax.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's what we hope for, yes.

Mr. Morel, you said you might consider a report from the committee.

Earlier, Mr. Lehoux asked what would happen if a large quantity of product arrived. You know that production and supply management require predictability. Do you have a quick adjustment process in place to use if products start to come in at capacity?

[Philippe Morel]

The agency's role is to ensure the inspection of products coming into Canada.

Since Ukraine has never exported chicken to Canada, we have no history of what the potential might be. We know that only three slaughterhouses have been authenticated and recognized as being able to export chicken to Canada. If they are able to produce the necessary documentation to ensure food safety, the agency will have the people in place to provide authorization.

We will then be able to see the extent of these imports. If there are supply management implications, I imagine that my colleagues at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada will be the ones to step in. We'll work with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Perron and Mr. Morel.

Mr. MacGregor, you have the floor.