Evidence of meeting #47 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suppliers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Sands  Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers
François Thibault  Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.
Paul Cope  Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP
Tyler McCann  Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
Mary Robinson  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Catherine Lefebvre  President, Quebec Produce Growers Association
Patrice Léger Bourgoin  General Manager, Quebec Produce Growers Association
Scott Ross  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

7:10 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

The way we do capital allocation is that we start with capital investments in our core businesses. Our warehouses and our store network are our priority. In 2022 we invested $620 million in our network DCs. That was a record. This year we're going to invest $800 million throughout our broader DCs network, a record level for our company. That's our priority.

Once all these projects are allocated, then we return some cash to the owners of the business. Whether it's a dividend policy and if there's.... We have been increasing the dividends to return cash to shareholders. As I said in my introductory remarks, we have to compete for customers in town but we also compete for capital. We have to reward the owners of the business.

I think it's the right balance that we're trying to achieve.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

We're going to keep that there.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Thank you, Mr. Thibault.

Mr. Epp, go ahead for no more than five minutes.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Many farm sectors are facing all sorts of cost pressure increases from energy, labour and fertilizer. We've heard a bit about the fresh market sector and the direct dealings with the retailers. A sector I am most familiar with is the processing sector—so there's another food manufacturer in the middle of the value chain—particularly the processing tomato sector, and I think this will serve as an example for many sectors.

I'm familiar with it in Ontario and in California, which is the global benchmark. California produces 30% of the world's processing tomatoes, 20 times what we do here in Canada. It just set its price to growers at $138 U.S. f.o.b the field, which is about $184 Canadian. California growers are facing cost pressures. In Canada, growers here are facing those very same cost pressures plus the carbon tax yet on top.

My understanding from industry discussions that are happening right now is that Canadian growers won't even achieve the price f.o.b. the plant—where the growers have to deliver to the plant—that California growers are getting in the field. Those are some of the cost pressures that our processors and food manufacturers are facing, besides their increasing costs for packaging, etc. Then these processors will come and meet with our food retailers. Then there are the consumers. What are we going to do for the consumers? What can be done?

The United Kingdom has had experience with a grocer code of conduct—we've heard a bit about it today in testimony already—that has the potential to lower costs to consumers relatively because it lowers the administrative costs for retailers. I have many specific examples I could talk about.

In my discussions with a food manufacturer, he's described his experience with two different retailers as follows. He says that retailer A generally accepts the increase as long as you can back it up. Then they take their margin and let the consumer decide if it's too much or not. This is actually a smart and responsible way of handling inflation. Concerning retailer B, he says that these guys are—and, Mr. Chair, I cannot say the next word because it's unparliamentary—and the worst in the industry. They go after their vendors and not only deduct but add fines unilaterally and have these fancy calculations that they don't share with you. Then they come back and say you owe 1% to 2% of total sales. He says that, if the code of conduct is not implemented as mandatory, and with a governing body, they are done selling to them—they are terrible.

We've had some statements today that retailer practices are transparent. I would invite those retailers to share with this committee and table documents as evidence that back up that statement. I'm not going to identify the manufacturer that I was quoting for fear of reprisals, but here's my question. Given the disparity in behaviour from retailers, would the Canadian consumers benefit from a code of conduct, and would your company participate if other large retailers won't?

Let's start with Mr. Cope.

7:15 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

Specifically back to.... I just have a comment on the concern you have with tomatoes. Also on top of that for us, as retailers in western Canada, now we have to transport it out here or from the United States at increased cost as well. Those aren't costs that we've been able to pass on because that just makes the cost of the product completely unreasonable for folks.

Right now, I believe that we as a company are transparent with folks in the industry, not only with our customers but also our vendor partners. I think we're open to anything that provides a better relationship. Is it the code of conduct? Maybe, but I think that the last three years for all of us have been extremely difficult and have probably stretched and strained our relationship with each other. It's not just because of what's happening with us at the grocery level. It's what's happening to them: the costs of raw material, product and packaging, labour. We've identified all those things right now, too, so I would suggest that the last three years for us have been extremely—

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Cope.

Mr. Thibault, I'd like to hear from you, as well.

7:15 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

We support the code of conduct. Since the FTP agricultural working group was formed, we actively participated in the drafting of the code of conduct, so we believe that our relationship with suppliers is good. We support the code of conduct, and as I said, we've been an active participant in drafting it.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

You are retailer A, Mr. Thibault.

I have a question: Why are Canadian retailer fees higher in Canada—28%, on average, of processor costs versus 18% in the U.S.?

Mr. Cope.

7:20 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

Sir, could you repeat the question? I didn't quite hear that.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Epp Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Why are the fines, the levies, the fees, about 28% of Canadian processor or food manufacturer costs versus 18% of similar U.S. processor costs?

7:20 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

With regard to, specifically, the fines directly to those folks, that is not necessarily part of my scope as an SVP of operations. That's why I couldn't speak directly to that.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We'll now go to Ms. Taylor Roy for up to five minutes.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

This is a difficult conversation and I don't want to reiterate what's already been said. It's clear that, on the agriculture and agri-food committee, we're all concerned about the farmers. They've been struggling. We've gone through all the costs that have gone up. We're also concerned about the consumers. There are a lot of individuals struggling to make ends meet and afford food.

Of course, I'm a business person. I understand return on investment and margins, but I don't understand why profits have definitely been going up for grocery retailers. You can look at the numbers any way you want. Volume has gone down, profits have gone up and margins have stayed the same. It's because the margins are on a higher base because of inflation. In fact, you are profiting from inflation.

We can look at this any way you want and talk about all the costs coming through, but facts don't lie. Executive pay has gone up. Dividends have gone up, and you said investments have gone up. However, workers' salaries haven't gone up—perhaps slightly, but in fact they actually went down by $2 from what was given during COVID. Prices have gone up for consumers.

I continue to hear this emphasis on margins and accounting guidelines, but I've also heard from you that you want transparency and everything has to be open. I don't think there's any requirement that you only report margins the way you are. The accounting guidelines don't restrict you from reporting it in a different way. I'm wondering why you keep falling back on that and refuse to talk about the absolute dollar numbers you have made on groceries from people—breaking it down more by the actual components, as opposed to just a description of what's going on in each area.

Perhaps you could address the fact that profits have gone up because of inflation. Why are you not passing any of that on to the consumer—helping, during this difficult period, by reducing prices, somehow?

I'd like an answer from all of you. With increased profits, why are you not trying to help consumers by keeping prices down more?

February 6th, 2023 / 7:20 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers

Gary Sands

I'll speak for the independents.

Profits are not increasing for the independent grocer—certainly not for Main Street.

I take your points. I want to say, with all respect, that, in my experience—over many years in this industry—the preoccupation or priority of ag committees and ministries has always been on farm, farm and, of course, farm. I think part of this is not having, until recently—because of all the things happening—an understanding of how the industry works.

I'll speak to—

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Sands, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if you're saying independent grocers' profits have not gone up at all, I'd like to hear from the other two witnesses.

7:20 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers

Gary Sands

Okay—

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

I'm sorry. I only have five minutes.

I'd like to hear answers to my question from the other two witnesses, whose profits have actually gone up.

7:20 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

I can answer that question on behalf of Save-On-Foods.

Our 2022 profit was lower than the previous year's, so profits haven't gone up.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

We don't want to just look at the previous year. We want to look at the period prepandemic to postpandemic—18 months. Look at March 2022. Your profits had definitely increased. In fact, the StatsCan numbers show your combined profits were 89% or $143 billion in just 15 sectors, out of all of them. Oil and gas has profited the most, but retail grocers have also profited greatly.

I'm not looking at a year-by-year comparison, because that's not relevant right now.

7:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

In terms of same-store volume inside our stores prepandemic, the volume inside our stores has gone up significantly.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

You're saying that, after the spike.... There was a spike, because of pandemic spending, but volume has gone down over the last year due to price increases and people starting to go out to restaurants and not spending as much at grocery stores. We saw a spike there, but when you look at the charts, the volumes have gone down.

7:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Paul Cope

Again, the volume inside our company, right now, is significantly higher than prepandemic, so the sales have gone up.

The other factor our consumers have to deal with.... It's not only food inflation. Interest rates have gone up significantly. The price of gas has gone up, as has the price of all types of household goods. The pressures those folks have felt, just from going back to school and everything that is associated.... It's not just food inflation. I appreciate that the—

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you, Mr. Cope.

Thank you, Ms. Taylor Roy. We're going to have to keep it at that. I gave you a few extra seconds.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

7:25 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Thibault, if you don't mind, we will go back to what we were discussing earlier.

You were saying that fees were negotiated transparently, and yet I've heard that fees were imposed unilaterally.

You did tell me earlier that they were always negotiated.

Is that correct?

7:25 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

Yes, they are negotiated for sure. Sometimes we don't agree during negotiations or discussions, as our views may differ. However, we sit at the negotiating table and work to resolve our differences.

7:25 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Okay.

In response to Mr. MacGregor's questions, you stated that you had not raised prices during the holiday season.

Can you explain what that's all about?