Evidence of meeting #47 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suppliers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Sands  Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers
François Thibault  Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.
Paul Cope  Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP
Tyler McCann  Managing Director, Canadian Agri-Food Policy Institute
Mary Robinson  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Catherine Lefebvre  President, Quebec Produce Growers Association
Patrice Léger Bourgoin  General Manager, Quebec Produce Growers Association
Scott Ross  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

This meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting number 47 of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri–Food.

I will begin with a few reminders.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings are broadcast on the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

Taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.

Obviously, for our witnesses who are joining online, there is an opportunity to toggle between English and French. You'll see that at the bottom of your screen. Certainly for Mr. Thibault, who is here in person, if he requires it, we have translation available.

Thank you, translators, for your work.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by this committee on Wednesday, October 5, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of food price inflation. This is something we started before Christmas, colleagues, and we are looking forward to getting back to the topic.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for the first panel. From the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, we have Mr. Gary Sands, who serves as the senior vice-president. Mr. Sands, you're joining us online. Welcome.

From Metro Inc., we have François Thibault, who is the executive vice-president, chief financial officer and treasurer with the organization. Thank you, Mr. Thibault, for being here today in person.

From Save-On-Foods, we have Paul Cope, who is the senior vice-president of retail operations. I know we had some technical difficulties, but I think that has been resolved and we are good.

Monsieur Lehoux, go ahead.

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Lehoux Conservative Beauce, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Will the letter we discussed last week be available on the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri–Food website?

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Are you talking about the Ukraine remission order?

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Lehoux Conservative Beauce, QC

Yes.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

There wasn't a specific allocation or ask for that, but it has been sent to the minister. I don't want to take up committee time right now, but if you would like, that could be something we discuss at the end, or, if there's a consensus right now, we can quickly move. I don't want to waste the time of our witnesses. There wasn't a specific ask on that, but if it is the will of the committee, we can make that happen.

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Lehoux Conservative Beauce, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Has the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenshipgotten back to you?

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

We've sent the invite and we're working on scheduling now. We'll provide an update when we get back into committee business, but we do have our witnesses here before us, and I'd like to move forward if that's the case.

Just quickly on what Mr. Lehoux was talking about in terms of having that letter published, is there a majority in this committee who would like to see that happen?

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Chair, is there a motion on the floor? Can we get through the witnesses and then maybe discuss this at the end if we have time?

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Why don't we discuss that later? Thank you for raising that, Mr. Lehoux.

I'm going to start with Mr. Sands.

You have up to five minutes. The floor is yours.

6:30 p.m.

Gary Sands Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers

Thank you.

Good evening. My name is Gary Sands. I'm senior vice-president with the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, as the chair indicated.

Thank you for the invitation to CFIG to offer our perspective on the issue the committee is examining, that of food inflation. I will, of course, likely be repeating some of the same observations others have made to this committee, but I am glad that the perspectives of independent grocers are being solicited.

There are approximately 6,900 independent grocers in Canada, ranging in size from large to medium to single-store operators. Many of those independents are also located in semi-rural, rural and remote communities, where they are most likely the only grocery store in that community. Issues around fair supply and affordability in those areas are closely linked to food security for those communities.

Our members also have a sort of symbiotic relationship with the communities they serve: living in the community, hiring local, buying local and supporting local community activities and causes. This bond is why they are such an important part of the tapestry that makes up this country from myriad diverse communities.

Naturally, independent retailers are extremely sensitive to the concerns around affordability being felt by their customers, who are also many times their friends and neighbours. That is why the suggestion that there is “greedflation” or profiteering taking place in the food industry is something our members find unfortunate. As the study last August by Dalhousie's agri-food lab pointed out, “If 'greedflation' exists, the available data suggests grocers are not responsible.”

Let me be clear that while I am here today to represent independent grocers, we know that the cost pressures and challenges confronting the food industry are being borne by all. There is no bogeyman here—not retail grocers, not suppliers. When you're an independent grocer receiving price increase notices from all of your suppliers, which are most often in the double digits, if your margins are 2% to 3%, then we don't know what business model you can use. You can't help but pass those costs on to your consumers.

All of us in the industry have talked about the issues that have impacted us over the last couple of years. Some of the most significant have been the impact of catastrophic flooding in B.C.; adverse weather events in western Canada, including a virus and drought in California; of course, the continuing war in Ukraine; port, rail, and border disruptions; significant increases in fuel surcharges and transportation, which are felt more acutely by independents in rural and remote communities; and increases in input costs throughout the entire supply chain.

As I've said a few times, if someone were to tell my members that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse all now have jobs in different parts of the food industry, that would come as no surprise. It's really not about what has happened to hit the industry; it's more about what hasn't happened.

Another factor that I would draw to the attention of the committee is that over the last three years, we have seen a massive migration away from cash in favour of credit card transactions. This, in turn, translates into a massive increase in interchange fees paid by businesses to banks and credit card companies, currently estimated at around $10 billion a year. Again, those fees have a disproportionate impact on a narrow-margin sector like retail grocery, particularly for independent grocers, who pay higher fees than other large businesses. Those fees have an impact on food affordability. I would urge the government to look at establishing one lower interchange fee for any and all grocers where customers use a credit card to purchase food.

I would conclude by saying that the food industry has a shared commitment to making this industry one that continues to look for ways to better serve Canadians. We take that seriously.

Our industry is very interdependent and interconnected. Concerns around food security and affordability are top of mind for Canadians, which is why there is a great sensitivity throughout the supply chain around the issue of food inflation and affordability. Our desire to work together is why we are working to draft a grocery code of conduct for this industry. As a member of the steering committee, I can tell you that we're making great progress on that initiative.

I think that's my time, Chair. I'm happy to answer any questions later on after the other witnesses have spoken.

Thank you.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you, Mr. Sands.

Mr. Thibault, you have the floor for five minutes.

February 6th, 2023 / 6:35 p.m.

François Thibault Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

Mr. Chair, committee members, good evening.

Tonight I will discuss the growing inflationary pressures impacting the supply chain and food prices.

There's no doubt that food prices have gone up due to rising costs for suppliers and producers. However, it's important to keep in mind that our retail prices do not reflect all the effects of inflation, because we absorb some of the costs.

As a recent Statistics Canada report confirmed, the COVID-19 pandemic, the ongoing war in Ukraine, unfavourable weather conditions, higher global prices for inputs such as fertilizer and natural gas, geopolitical instability, higher transportation costs, longer transportation times, higher packaging prices, labour shortages and higher labour costs are all contributing to these increases.

As industry experts have pointed out, the biggest driver of higher food prices on grocery shelves is manufacturers, processors and wholesalers raising rates repeatedly and almost across the board as they themselves are facing cost increases. That's not to castigate the vendors; that's a simple statement of fact.

In 2022, Metro received more than 27,000 price increases from suppliers just for dry grocery products, almost three times the yearly average. Canadians are seeing a portion of these reflected on their grocery bills and in the cost of everyday goods.

Our industry continues to experience higher than normal inflationary pressures, and the teams in all our banners are working hard to offer quality products at competitive prices.

Our revenue has increased, but so have our expenses. What hasn't changed is our commitment to delivering value for our customers. What also hasn't changed are our profit margins, which have remained stable for many years.

We take our responsibility to meet the nutrition and health needs of the communities we serve very seriously. Metro is a business and a public company. We compete for customers. We compete for talent, and we compete for capital in an open market.

I hope we can have an honest discussion today about the root causes of food price inflation and how all stakeholders can work with industry to help mitigate supply challenges.

We know that families across Canada are struggling with rising food prices. Our team works tirelessly to deliver the best possible value across our banners with competitive prices, our full range of private label products and our efficient weekly promotions.

All our Quebec and Ontario banners offer products at very competitive prices to cost-conscious and quality-conscious consumers. We're very proud that the Quebec magazine Protégez-Vous found that Super C delivers the best value for customers provincewide.

Supporting the communities in which we live and work remains at the heart of what we do to help the most vulnerable and those most in need.

In 2022, Metro is proud to have donated $50 million in food to food banks in Quebec and Ontario, the equivalent of 4.5 million kilograms of food or 9 million meals. This was in addition to a financial contribution of $5.5 million to various causes.

Furthermore, through the participation of our network of stores and pharmacies, and thanks to our customers' generosity and the hard work of Metro employees, $6.8 million was collected for various causes in 2022, including help for the people of Ukraine, the Red Cross and the United Way.

In closing, the inflammatory language used to describe the grocery industry in the past few months has been untrue and unproductive. To say that grocers like Metro are causing food price inflation or using it to pad our profit margins is simply not true. Experts agree that the causes of food price inflation are far beyond the control of grocers. At Metro, our publicly disclosed growth targets have remained the same. As I said previously, our profit margins have remained stable for many years, and we have not passed on all the impact of inflation to customers as we have absorbed a part of the increase.

As your committee looks for ways to address rising food costs, I hope you will work with all parts of the supply chain to find solutions.

Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you, Mr. Thibault.

Mr. Cope, you now have the floor for five minutes.

6:40 p.m.

Paul Cope Senior Vice-President, Retail Operations, Save-On-Foods LP

Good evening, Mr. Chair and committee members.

My name is Paul Cope. I'm Save-On-Foods' senior vice-president of retail operations, and I'm part of the senior executive team for the broader Pattison Food Group.

Originally established in New Westminister, B.C., in 1915, we are one of western Canada's largest private employers. With support from over 30,000 team members, we are proud and thankful to service the needs of western Canadians as far east as Winnipeg, north to Whitehorse, and west to Vancouver Island. Our largest and signature brand is Save-On-Foods.

Pattison Food Group also operates in grocery stores under several other banner names, each built to meet the unique needs of the communities they serve. Our wholesale businesses support nearly 2,000 independent grocers, and we operate several food and pharmacy production and distribution facilities.

As a group, we look for synergies that strengthen our ability to compete against national and multinational giants, against whom we have significant cost disadvantages, given their size and scale and their market dominance.

We serve over 2.3 million Canadians every week, and we're proud to be recognized as leaders in customer service, innovation and community support. Our customers depend on us to consistently deliver safe and affordable products and services. We take that responsibility very seriously. Our mission statement is simple: “always customer first”.

We make it a practice to source from local growers and producers first. We carry thousands of locally made products from more than 2,500 local growers and producers, including goods we bring to market under our private label brand, Western Family, many of which are made in our home province of British Columbia.

National brands are, of course, a critical part of our mix. We depend on our suppliers and partners to work with us to ensure we are delivering the goods, services and value our customers expect, no matter where they live.

The food supply chain is long, and we are at the very end of it, in the west. The majority of these products are produced more than 4,000 kilometres away in the eastern parts of the country. The incremental costs of transporting products we depend on from the east have been millions of extra dollars in expenses every month. They're separate from increases from the manufacturers. These are immense costs for a company of our size. As an example, fuel costs alone climbed 174% last year. There is no doubt inflation is a serious concern.

As a retailer, we are working hard to reduce costs by increasing efficiencies, and our suppliers are doing the same. However, the consolidation and movement of manufacturing out of the country actually do the opposite.

Supply is a major concern of ours. We're still on allocation with many suppliers, and service levels have not returned to pre-COVID levels—at least, not here in the west. We just need to look at the challenges we've seen with things such as children’s Tylenol and baby formula, which are recent examples of this.

In the face of all this, we continue to do everything in our power to keep retail prices as low as possible. Like all other grocers, we are in the penny-profit business. Our margins are slim and continue to be slim; we are projecting them to be even tighter next year. Like most conventional grocery stores, we're already selling approximately 40% of our items on deal every week—a number that is climbing. These goods are typically sold below our cost. Because of rapid inflation, the consumer is not recognizing the value.

The pace and number of cost increases we've seen from suppliers since the start of the pandemic have been unrelenting and ongoing. Since the start of last year, we have accepted nearly 20,000 unit-level cost changes from suppliers. That's up 200% from the prior year, which, because of the effect of COVID, was already precedent-setting. That's just under 10,000 cost increases at item level in the third quarter alone.

Yes, we push back to ensure these are justified. However, for a company of our size, this is a huge task. In many cases, we simply have no choice. Because our earnings average just over two cents for every dollar we sell, we have no choice but to try to adjust prices when we are hit with these costs.

If you ask whether we at Save-on-Foods are benefiting from inflation, the answer is simply no. However, we are focused hard on increasing efficiencies and reducing costs in all areas, so we can reinvest these savings in our prices, people and community support efforts, and in the healthy growth of our business.

We ask the federal government to partner with industry to help us fix the problems where they lie. What's important is that, in our hunt for solutions, we do not add unnecessary costs—costs that will ultimately get passed on to the consumer.

Thank you. I would be happy to answer your questions.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Colleagues, we're going to turn to questions. We'll start with the Conservatives.

Ms. Rood, I believe you're leading us off for up to six minutes. It's over to you.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today and talking on this very important study about the high cost of food and food inflation.

Last December, we heard testimony at this committee that 44% of fresh fruit and vegetable growers are selling their products at a loss. That begs a question for me: How long can farm families continue to stay in business when they're selling at a loss to big grocery stores that are constantly and consistently showing big profits?

For my first question, I will go over to you, Mr. Thibault. Thank you for being here today.

When you order fresh produce from farmers you contract with—they're vendors for you, and they deliver the goods to your centralized warehouse—do you impose additional fees on those farmers to cover the cost of unloading the truck with the goods you ordered and had delivered to you?

6:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

The fees we charge are negotiated and transparent. I think during the pandemic we showed some very reasonable sense on that.

We favour local purchases. They're a big portion of our sales, especially in the summer. We've had a local sourcing policy since 2013 in Quebec and 2016 in Ontario, and it's part of our corporate social responsibility as well, to increase the relationship with suppliers—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have only six minutes. So the answer is yes, you do charge the farmer a fee to have your people unload their goods at your warehouse.

6:50 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

I don't have the specifics. I don't know about specific fees. All I know is that we try to negotiate and be transparent with all fees that we charge suppliers.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Right. Well, I can answer that question for you from farmers I've talked to: Yes, they are charged an additional fee.

I'm just going to move on to the next question here.

We've heard that grocery stores charge farmers other fees, so I'm just wondering. There's something called a charge-back. We hear that you charge farmers this charge-back, or what you would call a rebate, which is a percentage of total sales, simply so they can have the privilege of selling their food to you to put on the store shelves.

I'm wondering if this is a practice that your company engages in.

6:50 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

No. In fact, we have a very transparent pricing mechanism with local suppliers. We have a web-based transaction platform through which we put out the quantities that we're looking for—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

So you don't have a charge-back program or you don't have a program called a rebate program that you negotiate with farmers.

6:50 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

With respect to the fees that we negotiate, I don't have a specific example for you, but I'm saying that the pricing that we negotiate with suppliers is very transparent. They bid for what they want to sell on the web platform—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Right. Well, again, I get this information from farmers who tell me they participate in rebate programs, and I can tell you from experience, from my family's having dealt with big grocery stores, there is something called a rebate program, under which you do charge a percentage back. If you're not aware of that, perhaps you should look into that, because I'd really like to know where that is shown on financial statements from your company.

I'll move on to my next question. Do you charge growers a lump sum payment annually for having the privilege of doing business with your company?

6:50 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer, Metro Inc.

François Thibault

In some cases, we have a lump sum payment that we negotiate with suppliers. When they do promotions with us, it could be a lump sum; it could be a tactical amount, or it could be a portion of revenues or purchases. These are all negotiated transaction fees that we negotiate with suppliers who participate in promotions or campaigns with their products.