Agriculture Committee on March 8th, 2023

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to ask for a point of clarification.

Mr. Singh asked to table a stack of questions for the committee. I want to clarify whether MPs can table evidence in committee. I didn't think they could.

Another question for Mr. Singh is, has he provided questions in both official languages?

I'm also interested to know whether he has the consent of the individuals he's disclosing in the questions—whether the personal information of Canadians is being disclosed in those documents.

I think we have to be responsible when considering the tabling of evidence in committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

You know, those are important points, Mr. Turnbull. I know that our clerk was looking into that. In the interests of this committee, I think I'm going to let our clerk continue to look into it.

I'll turn to you to see if you have an answer right now, Madam Clerk.

She's going to continue to look.

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

While I have the floor, I also would like to move a motion.

That, as part of the committee's study on Food Price Inflation, the committee invite the following witnesses: - Horacio Barbeito, CEO Wal Mart Canada - Pierre Riel, Senior Vice President, Country Manager, Costco Wholesale Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Colleagues, what are you thoughts on the idea of inviting some other CEOs? I see Mr. Singh's support. I see Mr. Perron and, I presume of course, that you have Liberal support and Mr. Barlow's as well. That will be moved then.

Madam Clerk, I don't think you require anything else. There is unanimous consent.

Colleagues, that brings us to the end. I want to recognize that there are a couple of members of Parliament who have taken their time to be here on the committee. We have Mr. Epp from Leamington and Mr. Fragiskatos from the London area—I don't know your exact riding. We have Mr. Morrice.

Mr. Morrice sits with a party that is not recognized, so they don't have status here, but with your permission, we will allow him just a brief moment. As your chair, I would like to give him one or two minutes to ask a question. I do believe that I need unanimous consent, but this committee has always worked pretty well on consensus.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Morrice, you have about two minutes, please.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Let me start by saying thank you to those who believe that our Parliament can't function well. I think that was an example of functioning really well. Thank you to all committee members and to the chair.

I will stop using up time on thanks and turn to the executives who are with us.

My question to you is trying to reconcile recent earnings results. Loblaw, for example, in the fourth quarter brags about an earnings increase of almost 13% over the previous year. Time and again throughout the last hour and half, we've heard each executive say that their earnings are reasonable.

Can I have you each comment, yes or no, whether you would support an excess profit tax that has been called for by many, including Mr. Singh, here in the last hour, an excess profit tax above your regular profits that you are now bragging about having increased, specifically so that the Government of Canada could use that to reinvest in supporting the lowest-income Canadians who are suffering from the cost-of-living crisis that we're in?

Would you each comment on whether you support an excess profit tax that would raise $4.3 billion over the next five years?

Thank you.

[Galen G. Weston]

I certainly believe that Canadians expect us to pay our taxes and to pay our fair share of taxes. We do. Last year, Loblaw paid $850 million in tax. I've said this before. I think you have to have the right definition of a windfall tax, then determine exactly who should pay it. When I go back to this point about looking at the entire value chain, if there is a windfall, then it needs to be assessed throughout the entire value chain, not just at the end of the value chain. As I said before, there's one dollar of the total impact.

Having said that, I do not believe that there are windfall profits in the grocery industry today. I believe that what is impacting high prices for Canadians is a global cost-of-living crisis that affects folks all over the world and that Loblaw is doing a very significant amount to ease the burden on Canadian consumers every single day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Morrice, I think that, in the interest of time, we're going to let Mr. Medline answer your question and Mr. La Flèche. Thank you for your intervention.

[Michael Medline]

I'll keep it brief, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Morrice, for your question. I appreciate it.

Without the details, it's a broad question to be able to answer. I'd like a bit more detail.

When I think about a windfall tax, I do get concerned that it would penalize companies that are rightfully improving their businesses the right way. I worry about unintended consequences always. I worry that ad hoc taxes discourage investment in this country. I think we should be encouraging investment in our great country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Go ahead, Mr. La Flèche.

[Eric La Flèche]

Thank you.

I disagree that there's any excess profit here. We make a reasonable profit, and we pay full taxes on all of it in Canada at very different levels of government. I don't think a special tax on grocery would be constructive. It would probably reduce investment, reduce innovation and not be fair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Morrice.

Colleagues, as your chair, I rarely get the opportunity to ask questions. I'm going to indulge myself very quickly on two as I listen to the testimony here today.

Mr. Weston, you talked about how Loblaw has voluntarily provided information to the Competition Bureau.

Mr. Medline, I think you've acknowledged that Empire has done the same in terms of providing information to the Competition Bureau.

We haven't heard from Mr. La Flèche. I would be interested in hearing from Metro's perspective. The one challenge this committee has had—and Mr. Drouin has really touched upon it—is trying to delineate the success and the profits of the various companies that are before us here today.

Mr. Weston, you recognized there are multiple lines of business.

Mr. Medline, you've mentioned that perhaps Empire's additional businesses outside of food are not as significant perhaps as some of your competitors', but we, as parliamentarians, have difficulty getting access to that information. We had testimony from the Competition Bureau that suggested that changing their legislation to actually allow them to compel information from companies of interest in these market studies would be a very important regulatory change.

Have you all submitted information to the Competition Bureau that delineates the two? I think the two witnesses in the room have answered that.

Are you open and willing to that proposal from the Competition Bureau to give them perhaps a little more regulatory pull to compel information for market studies specifically?

Mr. La Flèche, perhaps we can hear from Metro about whether you've voluntarily provided to the Competition Bureau, and then I'll allow all three to answer the broader question.

Thank you.

[Eric La Flèche]

We are participating in the Competition Bureau study. They have made certain requests. We will take them all seriously and fully co-operate with them in a normal way as long as it's market-wide, competitive and confidential, and there's no competitive disadvantage in doing so.

As it was said before, and it's the same for us, we publish our results according to international financial reporting standards. They are fully audited. We provide colour on pharmacy and food to explain our numbers, and we provide extremely detailed information quarterly, with a lot of information annually. There's a lot there for the public to see and for all the members of the committee to see.

We will participate in the study by the Competition Bureau.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Does your company have a perspective on the Competition Bureau's suggestion about giving them more regulatory powers to compel beyond the voluntary nature of how you're co-operating right now? Is that something you would support, or do you need more time to reflect on that?

[Eric La Flèche]

We would need to see exactly what that entails and what that means. I can't really comment. I'll take a note of it and we could get back to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Medline.

[Michael Medline]

I have the same response as Eric.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Weston.

[Galen G. Weston]

I feel very much the same way. If the Competition Bureau isn't getting the information they need from us, all they need to do is call us and let us know and we'll be happy to make it available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I have a last point I want to raise, given that we have the member for Leamington here and that the greenhouse sector is so important in his riding.

Mr. Medline, you mentioned your company's deep roots in Nova Scotia. As a member of Parliament from Nova Scotia, I appreciate that.

Can I give you about 45 seconds to talk about your work in vertical farming? I know Empire has been involved. You mentioned one of your strategies or one of your thoughts on addressing food price inflation is actually investing in the greenhouse sector, which I think is part of Canada's strategic interest, particularly in southwestern Ontario.

I'm going to give you a moment to elaborate on anything else you might want to leave for us as parliamentarians, and then we're going to wrap up.

[Michael Medline]

Thank you for saying that.

Whenever we can, we want to buy Canadian. We want to buy local. We have increased our local purchases I don't even know how many times over the last number of years. It is a difficult business to farm out of greenhouses. We have to make it easier to have a shorter supply chain. We have to buy Canadian, support our farmers. We have to lower the price, not rely on others.

I think the government should look at ways we can help these companies. These are hard companies to start up. Unfortunately, we've seen some of them fail because they're very difficult. We would love to support by buying these products, as we do today, and have more and more Canadian produce, which is obviously very difficult to get our hands on in months like this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Colleagues, that brings our questions and our opportunity with the CEOs to a close today.

We are going to be making a quick transition, for those who are on the committee, to continue our consideration of the draft report on global food insecurity.

On behalf of the members, I'd like to thank Mr. Medline, Mr. Weston and Mr. La Flèche for joining us here today and having the opportunity for us to engage with them.

[Proceedings continue in camera]