Agriculture Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[Megz Reynolds]

Thank you for that question.

Depending on where you farm, if you're in Ontario or Quebec, around cities with much denser populations, there is a much higher risk of trespassing. Whether that is perceived or real, it weighs on someone the same as if that person is about to break into their barn tomorrow.

One of the items identified in our study was the challenge with public trust, and this is a piece of public trust. Farmers are worried that they're not understood and that they're at risk because of what they're trying to do. That is a growing concern when looking at the increase of these incidents happening all over the world. We may not be able to link all the AI outbreaks over the past two or three years to trespassing, but that doesn't mean that it is not one of the main causes, as we continue to move forward.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

A lot of the causes have been identified, and a lot of it was introduced by practices on farms, in fact.

Mr. Berrigan, I want to go back to something my colleague Mr. Barlow asked earlier regarding the increase in animal activism. First, I want to correct the record, because Mr. Barlow mentioned that all animal welfare organizations are out to end animal agriculture. As you know, you've worked with some and that isn't the case. They are there to protect the welfare of animals as well, and their safety. There are a number of emails we received that have really been concerned with the health and safety of animals as well.

The increase in the numbers we heard from Mr. Barlow, of course, was from the U.S. With the increase in the fundraising and the amount of money that's been donated, why do you think people are doing that? What are they finding on farms? What are they talking about that's happening? Clearly, it's becoming an increasing issue and people are concerned about animal welfare, so what do you think the basis for that is?

[Brodie Berrigan]

Thank you for the question.

As was mentioned previously, a vast majority, if not all, of the animal activists we have some experience with are very much fundamentally opposed to animal agriculture, full stop. That's really the issue. The challenge we're having is with ensuring that the proper biosecurity measures are in place to support those farmers. Not to prevent people from having free speech and expressing their concerns, but to ensure that those issues don't bleed onto the farm—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I want to interrupt for a second because I have only a couple of minutes. I was asking what it is that these groups.... You worked with Humane Canada, I believe, and that's a group that advocates for animal welfare and is not opposed to animal agriculture. I think there are numerous others that I could actually put into the record, but I'm sure you know of them. What are they finding? What are they showing people or telling people? Why are people concerned about this?

[Brodie Berrigan]

I can't speak on behalf of those other organizations. What I will say is that the National Farm Animal Care Council has put in place a number of codes of practice to support animal welfare in Canada. Those codes of practice have been co-developed with organizations, like Humane Canada, that are very much in support of continuing to improve those codes of practice. Our biosecurity and animal welfare standards are really world-class, and we should be very proud of the measures we have in place in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berrigan and Ms. Taylor Roy.

You have two and a half minutes, Mr. Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lampron, I'll come back to you. I'd be remiss if I didn't chat with a member of my riding. I'll let you answer the previous question about the possibility of unfortunate incidents.

[Pierre Lampron]

That's what makes Bill C‑275 so important: If producers feel that the government doesn't care about their problems, if they don't feel supported, at some point, all kinds of things can happen.

I think the idea is that we work together. We're going to work on our side, the government is going to put rules in place to prevent these intrusions, we're going to put out nice positive messages for producers and we're going to get through this. That's what I wanted to say.

We mustn't forget that these organizations—we saw the amounts mentioned earlier—are very well organized. They're international. They see which countries have no laws or standards, and it's these countries that are the most attacked. We don't want to be the global target of farm intrusions. It's important to have protection.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Doyon, earlier, you proposed an amendment or, at least, a possible modification, if I understood you correctly. You said that we should clarify the text of the law by mentioning that everyone is deemed to bring a risk.

As we're running out of time, could you send us your proposal in writing and tell us what you think should be in the law? This would allow us to evaluate your proposal from a legal point of view and see if it's possible to add what you're proposing. Sometimes we can't just write everything any old way.

I'd also like you to explain why you're proposing this. If you do it quickly, we might get Mr. Lampron's reaction too.

[Paul Doyon]

I'll let Ms. Tessier answer.

[Annie Tessier]

A brief clarifying our thinking on this amendment has already been sent. What we are saying is that anyone who enters without authorization presents a biosafety risk. Even if that person respects certain biosafety protocols, they increase the risk, because they can cause stress. So we asked that it be made clear that anyone who enters without authorization or legitimate excuse is deemed to cause a biosecurity risk.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Lampron, you have five seconds.

[Pierre Lampron]

It's a good idea to protect animals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

That's good. Thank you, Mr. Perron, Ms. Tessier and Mr. Lampron.

It's the Conservatives' turn. Mr. Steinley, you have five minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

There are a few things I'd like to set straight. Sometimes there's some misinformation, even in our committees. There have been two cases of disease outbreaks because of trespassing. One was in Quebec City, where they had rotavirus on the farm, which they hadn't seen in 40 years, after unlawful protesters were on the farm. Another example was on an Ontario mink farm, where trespassers released thousands of animals, which led to an outbreak of distemper. I'm not sure what the other committee members were hearing, but that's the case of what happened and how protesters have allowed disease outbreaks on farms.

There are a few other things I'd like to put on the record from some of the organizations that are against animals as food. One is PETA, and their revenue was $82.2 million last year. This is a direct quote: “Ending speciesism is our ultimate goal. One strategy to end speciesism would be to end the use of animals as food.” That was Matthew Braun, manager of grassroots protest campaigns, 2021.

Another quote I would like to put on the record is from The Humane League, which has a total revenue of $13.6 million: “find a vulnerable target.... The crueler it is, the quicker the fight is over.” That was David Coman-Hidy, former executive director of the campaign in 2016. Another one is from Direct Action Everywhere, with a total revenue $1.6 million: “We are trying to destroy animal agriculture”, said co-founder Wayne Hsiung in 2016.

I'll direct my questions to Ms. Reynolds.

When farmers see these comments and know that there are hundreds of millions of dollars put into ending what they do, and they see these comments online, like the story you told us of the individual in Ontario, obviously that does affect their mental health. For anyone on this committee to sit here and say that there are no groups out there trying to end animal agriculture, do you think that would be factual?

[Megz Reynolds]

We've seen from events around the world and events in our own country that there are individuals whose intent has nothing to do with the welfare of the animals. It is strictly that they want animal agriculture to be stopped. That is why I wanted to highlight the comment on whistle-blowers, where oftentimes it's not the people who are showing up to possibly do harm who are in a place to be whistle-blowers. It's the neighbours; it's the professionals who show up and know what they're looking for.

I just want to stress how so many farmers in Canada are at such a chronic stress load that it could be one little thing and.... For us on the outside, it looks like it was just fear of this or the tractor breaking down, and we don't understand what happened, but that was enough to put that individual over the edge.

We've had multiple deaths due to suicide over the last couple of months in our agriculture community, and oftentimes from the outside it looks like one little thing. Anything we can do to help give our farmers peace of mind and help them feel safe for their animals and safe on their farms and in their homes I think is important.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I also have that case of Mr. Barlow and his constituents, the Tschetters, where just because there wasn't a disease outbreak.... People broke into their farm and they could have had a disease outbreak, but also many birds had to be put down because the people who were on that farm didn't know how to behave around animals and that caused these animals to stampede and kill one another.

Do you think that would have had an adverse effect on that family as well, with someone who should really not be on the farm in the first place coming onto the farm? This bill would prevent that.

[Megz Reynolds]

Of course. If anyone were to have someone show up in their house or their home, there would be a huge amount of stress and anxiety created, but add on top of that the fear that you have for your animals. And then again, even if you're raising animals to go into the food system, if something happens on your watch, that affects you and it affects your mental well-being because you feel like you have failed them and you have failed as a farmer.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I'd add this from personal experience. I grew up on a dairy and beef farm and it was a family farm. My father and my uncle farmed together, and animal health was paramount in what we did. Our family vacations were going to cattle shows. We loved our animals. I could go on for an hour about the show calves I've had, the nights I slept in the barn to make sure that when the calves were born, they were okay. It was something very important to us and it was a family tradition to make sure that our animals were well taken care of. I think that's the norm. I don't think we were special.

These family farms need protection now. What they're going through now is a cultivated effort to make sure that the farmers are shown as villains, and I believe that's what this is sometimes. They're trying to show farmers as villains, and we, as parliamentarians, need to stand up for our family farmers and make sure they're safe, make sure their families are safe.

I just want to thank you for all the work you do, and thank all the witnesses for being here today. I'll leave the final comments to you, Megz, on anything more we could do to help our farmers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Unfortunately, Mr. Steinley, you've talked right to five minutes, but it was great.

Ms. Reynolds, we have appreciated your testimony, but I have no more time to give.

I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Louis. Just to be clear, I skipped over Mr. Johns because he asked really good questions and he said he was satisfied that he had been able to get his testimony on the record. Thank you, Mr. Johns, for giving us two and a half minutes back.

Mr. Louis, it's over to you for five minutes. You'll finish us off.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all witnesses here in person and virtually.

I think from today's discussion it's clear that we all want to ensure that farmers are safe, which includes mental health, and we all want to make sure that animals are safe. That's the balance that we seem to be having. We've had this at many committees, in many studies that we've done, and I don't think we need to vilify one side or the other. I think everyone is working for the same thing.

I really appreciate everyone being here. From the Do More Agriculture Foundation, Ms. Reynolds, thank you very much. We have talked about that stigma for mental health and it's one of those big contributing factors in why so many people in the farming industry who are dealing with mental illness choose not to get help. One thing that made me feel good is that you said people are becoming more comfortable talking about mental health.

I still find that there's a bit of the traditional system issue. There's the challenge that people don't want to talk to someone in their community, which is why I'm so proud that we now have AgTalk, which is a peer-to-peer support line, or the suicide hotline that we're putting in soon.

You mentioned that there are issues that are out of farmers' control but limit their ability to do work. The biggest issues I'm hearing about would be climate change, which I think is also in your studies; financial uncertainty; isolation and loneliness, especially in the last few years; and the workload and the time pressure. Those are the major issues.

Where would the concerns about trespassing fit in, in that sliding scale?

[Megz Reynolds]

That's a really great question. Honestly, it depends on the farmer and on where they live and what they're exposed to.

In some areas, there is a higher risk or farmers have a perceived higher risk. I talked to a producer in Saskatchewan earlier this week, and she doesn't feel she can send her children out to fix fences by themselves because of the perceived risk there. You have farms, especially in the more highly populated areas, where they feel the risk is very high and very real. So it's down to that individual.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So it wouldn't be necessarily geographical. It's more of an individual situation.

[Megz Reynolds]

It's geographical, in the sense of the denser population. You have farms.... Ontario is a great case of farms and cities being very close together. I used to farm in Saskatchewan. That's all there was, where I farmed.

You have a much higher risk in some areas, even if, again, it is perceived. We're surrounded by people who don't understand what we're doing. They're three to four generations removed from a family farm, and the farmers feel like these other individuals don't trust what they're doing and don't trust that they're taking care of their animals. Then, if they do come in, because they think something's wrong, they could look at a barn full of birds or a dairy operation, and what they're going to see is very different from what the vet being there sees or what the person whose job it is to make sure those animals are safe sees, because one is trained and the other is not trained.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

You mentioned—this was anecdotal—that some people are bringing others to the farms for advocacy, maybe even through social media. That helps. That's educating people. You mentioned that it's cultivating empathy as well. It seems like a win-win.

Are there any programs that you know of that we can look into amplifying, to see how we can bridge that gap?