Agriculture Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Doyon.

We'll now move on to the question period.

This is the way we're going to do this, colleagues. We have 45 minutes left, and the first round is going to be five minutes for all major parties. The second round will be five minutes for the Liberals and the Conservatives, and two and a half minutes for the Bloc and the NDP. Then we'll do five minutes in the third round for the government and the opposition party. That way, we can get everyone in.

I will be tight on time, unfortunately. I'm usually pretty lenient, but I will be very tight.

Mr. Lehoux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us this morning.

I've heard three speakers raise the issue of biosafety and talk about the importance of the bill.

Mr. Lampron, you're also a farm owner. What do you see as the main dangers associated with unauthorized entry to a farm, such as yours? We know there are several, but just give me a concrete example.

[Pierre Lampron]

We have a lot of biosafety measures on the farm. We do foot baths, we wash boots, and people have to write their names in the register at the gate, among other things. When people arrive, we don't know where they've been or what disease they might be carrying. These diseases are often contagious and can therefore affect several animals in the herd. That's really the question we're asking ourselves: What disease are these people going to introduce into our breeding herd?

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I'd like more clarification on that, Mr. Lampron. As I understand it, people who enter a farm without authorization can be carriers of various diseases, which can be transmitted through their clothing, shoes or instruments, and which have already been detected on other farms.

[Pierre Lampron]

That's right. Bacteria can be on shoes, clothes or anything. They can be airborne too. They can be transmitted involuntarily, but also voluntarily. These people who enter without authorization don't always have good intentions.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I say that because we heard two veterinary doctors, one from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, say that disease transmission by people was unlikely, because it took a much longer contact. I take it you don't agree with that. In your opinion, the simple act of entering a farm creates a very high possibility of transmission, doesn't it?

[Pierre Lampron]

Yes. I don't know if he was talking about dairy production. Maybe the danger is lower in those cases, but pork and sheep production are very fragile. Cattle production is not immune either. Bacteria have already entered through individuals. That's why we've adopted biosafety standards. It's to protect our animals.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Doyon, do you have anything to add about the importance of biosecurity? Then I'll turn to another point.

[Paul Doyon]

What Mr. Lampron said is correct. Pathogens can be brought in by intruders, but sometimes just creating stress in animals can make them more vulnerable to microbes, which can travel through the air or in other ways, in the following days. An animal that is stressed by all kinds of things is more likely to contract diseases. This is a recognized fact.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Doyon.

Another very important element that often comes up is the question of mental illness and the stress that all this causes producers. Can the witnesses talk a little more about the impact of this stress on farms? Earlier, Ms. Reynolds mentioned that one in four producers develops some form of mental illness as a result of stress.

I invite the witnesses to respond in turn, starting with Ms. Reynolds. Then I'd like to hear from the other two representatives.

[Megz Reynolds]

There's so much on a daily basis that a farmer is thinking about or dealing with that is out of their control but directly influences their ability to be successful. All of that is weighing on them at all times. They are living where they work, so they don't have the ability to go home at the end of the day and distance themselves. That adds to the mental load and stress that they're constantly carrying.

We have seen, in growing years, the disconnect between those who produce food and those who are no longer connected to the farm. We're all consumers, so I'm not going to do a “this or them”. A lot of producers are feeling that they're not understood. They're feeling as though people have the idea that they're trying to hurt their animals or don't care about their animals, or that they don't care about what they're doing or the environment.

They can't control their prices and they can't control the weather or trade. To have the additional risk that someone at some point can come to their farm, their barn or their home.... Maybe it's just that, and maybe they can't send their children out to do chores because they're scared of that, and the weight of that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Reynolds. I apologize, but we're right at time, so I have to keep moving.

Up next is Mr. MacDonald for five minutes.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.

Obviously, we've received quite a few emails in reference to this bill. I am fully in support of it—I want to be clear about that—but I also want to reinforce the importance of the bill and why it needs to happen. We fully understand the economic value, but there's also the mental health value to our farmers and the well-being of our livestock.

There are bad apples out there. We know that. They are in every industry, in every sector. Do you feel this legislation would impair the ability to raise awareness to ensure accountability in cases of legitimate agricultural abuses? I'd like to put that to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture to let them expand on it.

[Brodie Berrigan, Director, Government Relations and Farm Policy, Canadian Federation of Agriculture]

Pierre, did you want to jump in?

[Pierre Lampron]

I'll let you answer the question, Mr. Berrigan, since you'll be able to give a specific answer to the question about diseases.

[Brodie Berrigan]

Yes, thank you for the question.

I think it is a very good question. I had a similar question before about this legislation. This is a very important bill for Canadian farmers, and certainly we're very supportive of it. As was mentioned previously, it is important from a national perspective for farmers, as well as from the perspective of ensuring and supporting our food security objectives, mental health objectives and international trade implications.

In terms of the integrity of the process, I think there are already very strong animal welfare codes of practice in place in Canada. Those animal welfare codes of practice have been co-developed through the National Farm Animal Care Council with a diverse set of stakeholders, including Humane Canada.

In the event where there are bad actors, there is a system in place. We have the Criminal Code of Canada, of course, which prohibits anyone from wilfully causing animals to suffer neglect, pain or injury. I think the other thing to point out is that, at the end of the day, the incentives are there to protect and promote biosecurity and animal welfare. Farmers have everything to lose and nothing to gain from breaches in biosecurity.

That's how I would answer that question.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Berrigan, very good.

We touched on this a bit in the preamble and some of the questions, about how many different people access these farms who are obligated to report any deficiencies or abuses that may be taking place. Can you talk about some of the people who enter those farms on a daily basis who would be obligated to report?

[Brodie Berrigan]

Certainly that covers veterinarians, as was discussed earlier, in the previous testimony. You can certainly have inspections on a regular basis. A lot of farms, such as dairy farms—I'm sure Pierre can tell you a bit more about that—have mandatory third party inspections every second year. There are people coming who are invited to the farm on a regular basis to perform certain mandatory and necessary functions.

I think the distinction we're making in this bill is between those who are not invited to the farm and the premises and who pose a threat to biosecurity and those who are there for very legitimate purposes.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Berrigan.

Ms. Reynolds, we have a program in Prince Edward Island that's called Farmers Talk. I think it was just started about two years ago. It was a really surprising number, the uptake on this program. I'm going to ask you this: Outside of this bill, what are some other things government can do to support your organization or farmers across the country?

[Megz Reynolds]

I appreciate that question.

One of the biggest things is putting mental health as part of the lens through which we look at things, especially policy creation. Last year, avian influenza was such a big thing across Canada. There are no turkey populations in B.C. anymore. I had some great conversations with some government officials about whether, when the CFIA officer shows up, they are coming with mental health support so they can help connect producers to that, instead of just, “Here's a list of what you need to do.”

The fact that I'm here today to answer your questions and testify is a really great first step in making sure we're including mental health in the thought process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacDonald.

Thank you, Ms. Reynolds.

Mr. Perron, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being with us today.

Mr. Doyon, you mentioned something interesting: the additional use of antibiotics that might be necessary following contamination. From memory, I think this is the first time anyone has mentioned this. It's very relevant.

You also mentioned that the legislation in the provinces and Quebec is not equal, and that in one place or the other, certain laws are going to be used. You said that in Quebec, we use the Civil Code and the Criminal Code. People who question Bill C‑275 tell us it's not necessary because there are already laws that can protect against intrusions.

I'd love to hear you talk about this aspect. Why is Bill C‑275 essential? What will it change in relation to existing legislation?

[Paul Doyon]

Pan-Canadian regulation is really essential, and that's what Bill C‑275 is going to enable. It will send a signal to everyone that people are not allowed to enter farms, which are places of production, but also living environments for families. It's not allowed for people to just turn up and demonstrate. That's what it should be across the country.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

What do you say to people who tell us that this bill is a kind of gag order that would be imposed on whistle-blowers? Some organizations are saying that, and Mr. MacDonald talked about emails he's received about the bill. I've also had meetings with certain groups who are telling us all this.

What mechanisms are in place? There are mechanisms in place. If we're close to a farm and we suspect mistreatment on a farm, how can people currently proceed to report such a case without committing an offence, without entering the farm, basically?

[Paul Doyon]

Earlier, we were saying that there are quality assurance programs, whereby people regularly go to farms and make reports. The Department of Agriculture makes regular visits to these farms. What's more, the professionals who turn up at farms to perform tasks, such as veterinary surgeons, feed advisors or others, are all people who have the ability to report abusive acts and any mistreatment of animals.

As for those who are far away, Ms. Tessier may have an answer for you.