Evidence of meeting #74 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was disease.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jodi Lazare  Associate Professor, As an Individual
Camille Labchuk  Executive Director, Animal Justice
Mary Jane Ireland  Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Rick James-Davies  Director General, Western Operations, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
René Roy  Chair, Canadian Pork Council
David Wiens  President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Daniel Gobeil  Vice-President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Toolika Rastogi  Senior Manager, Policy and Research, Humane Canada
Erin Martellani  Campaign Manager, Animal Advocacy, Montreal SPCA, Humane Canada
Ray Binnendyk  Member, Owner of Excelsior Hog Farm Ltd., Canadian Pork Council

8:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 74 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

There are a few reminders about today's meeting. This will be taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you're aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Screenshots or taking photos are prohibited. Our witnesses should be aware of that.

Also for our witnesses, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure the interpretation is working properly before we proceed.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on video conference, please click on your microphone to unmute yourself. For those in the room, the microphone will come on automatically. If you see the little red button in front of you on the panel, you will know that your microphone is on.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of our interpreters. When you are not speaking, please make sure, especially for those who are online, that your microphone is on mute.

I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair, please.

Pursuant to the order of reference for today, the committee will resume consideration of Bill C-275, An Act to amend the Health of Animals Act (biosecurity on farms).

I would now like to welcome our opening panel.

With us today, we have Dr. Jodi Lazare, associate professor. From Animal Justice, we have Camille Labchuk, executive director. From the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, we have Dr. Mary Jane Ireland, executive director, animal health directorate, chief veterinary officer for Canada, and Dr. Rick James-Davies, director general for western operations. I believe he is joining us online.

For our witnesses, you'll be given up to five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we'll proceed to the opening rounds of questions. When you have one minute left, I will signal you by giving you a bit of a wave so that you know to start your conclusion. Just keep an eye on it; I will try my best not to cut anyone off. I would like you to try to finish your comments.

We have a substitution today. We have Mr. Collins subbing in for Mr. Drouin. There's no pressure, Mr. Collins. I'm sure you'll do fine.

Ms. Lazare, we'll start with your opening comments. You have five minutes, please.

8:15 a.m.

Dr. Jodi Lazare Associate Professor, As an Individual

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

My name is Dr. Jodi Lazare. I am an associate professor at the Schulich School of Law at Dalhousie, where I teach the mandatory constitutional law course and an animal law seminar.

I previously held a research grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada to study the constitutional dimensions of animal rights advocacy and farm trespass laws. I have published articles in peer-reviewed journals on that subject.

I'm going to use my time here to touch on my primary concern with the proposed bill, which is simply that, just as in 2021, it may not correspond with the division of powers. By that I mean that Bill C‑275, in its current form, without the amendments voted on by committee last time around in 2021 in dealing with Bill C‑205, might well be outside of the federal government's legislative jurisdiction.

Some of the discussion in the House and in committee thus far has suggested that statutory consistency across provincial jurisdictions is a worthwhile goal, and I agree with that. It is a fact that uniform federal legislation would often be more efficient and more effective than a patchwork of different provincial laws.

However, the nature of Canada's constitutional structure means that it's simply not always possible to have consistency across provinces, and, respectfully, the federal government can't force consistency if it is acting outside of its area of jurisdiction.

I understand that this bill aims to improve biosecurity on farms and that it is, in some part, about protecting animals and about food safety, but it has also been stated, several times now, that the bill is primarily about trespass.

I'm sure the committee members don't need this kind of breakdown, but in the interest of clarity, I ask you to just please bear with me as I take you through my quick thinking about the constitutional issues here.

In determining whether a law was properly adopted by a particular level of government—that is, at the federal or provincial level—courts will look at what the law actually does. They look at a law's purpose and at its effects to uncover what's known in legal jargon as its “pith and substance” or its “dominant feature”.

They might look at the context of the adoption of a law, such as current events motivating its introduction—those have, of course been relevant here—and at speeches and debates and hearings like this one. All of those things, in the present case, clearly suggest that the “dominant feature” of this bill is not entirely protecting biosecurity. That's because, in addition to what has been said about this being a trespass bill—as this committee has heard before and I think we'll hear again today—biosecurity threats on farms are not in fact driven by trespassers, protesters or activists—by people “without lawful authority” to be on the farm, to use the words of the bill.

You've heard already—and I suspect we'll hear again—that CFIA records show that there is no documented evidence or instance of an activist or trespasser or protester introducing disease onto a farm, but that the greatest risks to animals are diseases transmitted from farm to farm. Diseases are transmitted from workers, suppliers, etc., going between farms, and by birds and wildlife and so on. In other words, they are not from individuals who are present illegally.

From a constitutional perspective then, in my view and as has been repeated here, this is a trespass bill, which may or may not, based on the evidence, have perhaps incidental or secondary effects on biosecurity. It's quite clear that this bill is about shutting down activism and trespass and about protecting the mental health of farmers and farm families. In other words, it is about protecting a particular industry by shutting down activism in the form of trespass.

In fact, the bill's sponsor has stated explicitly that this bill is about the protection of private property, and as we all know, these things fall under the provincial jurisdiction over property and civil rights. Legislation protecting private property is not, in other words, part of the federal government's tool box, so to speak.

The fact is that all provinces have trespass laws. Some of them have laws specific to trespass on farms, although some of those laws are currently being challenged in court. In fact, interestingly, Prince Edward Island's legislation, aside from the part about taking in any animal or thing, contains exactly the same wording as Bill C‑275 and has not been subject to any constitutional questioning, suggesting again that this bill, Bill C-275, should fall under provincial jurisdiction.

I want to be clear here that I am not suggesting that Parliament cannot legislate to protect health and safety and biosecurity on farms. It's been said numerous times by the courts that Parliament can legislate to protect health and safety by way of the Criminal Code, and in this case, perhaps by using its jurisdiction over agriculture, although there is not a lot of case law and interpretation of that provision.

My submission, rather, is that this bill, as it is currently written, does not do that: It does not target the most likely source of biosecurity risks. However, a law that provided for the same restrictions and applied to everyone who enters a farm, legally or illegally—in other words, that adopted the same amendments voted on with respect to Bill C-205 in 2021—would be much more likely to survive constitutional scrutiny because, in its dominant feature, it would be a biosecurity bill.

I will leave it at that in the interest of time, and of course I'm happy to answer questions.

Thank you.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow

Thank you very much, Dr. Lazare. I appreciate your comments.

Now we will move to Ms. Labchuk from Animal Justice for five minutes.

8:20 a.m.

Camille Labchuk Executive Director, Animal Justice

Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to appear.

I am a lawyer and the executive director of Animal Justice, Canada's leading national animal law advocacy organization. Together with our tens of thousands of supporters, we work to improve laws protecting animals. This is a big task because, frankly, Canada has fallen quite far behind. We have some of the worst animal protection laws in the western world, particularly on farms.

Let me just set the scene for you. We do not have federal or provincial laws regulating animal welfare on farms in this country. Many of the most cruel farm practices are still legal and common in Canada, despite being outlawed in places like the EU and in many U.S. states. This includes things like keeping pregnant pigs in gestation crates, which are metal cages so small that the mothers can't even turn around, and crowding egg-laying hens inside tiny wire cages where they can't even spread their wings, and farming animals for their fur.

Along with our lack of laws comes a lack of transparency and oversight. Farmed animals are typically kept behind closed doors in areas that, as you know, the public can't access. There are no government inspections of farms to proactively monitor animal welfare, including by the CFIA. Provincial agencies tend to respond only if a complaint is made, and no farmer or worker has a legal obligation to report anything they see.

One of the few times that a cruelty complaint can be made occurs when a person goes to work undercover on a farm and films what they see, wearing a hidden camera. I have been involved in many such exposés. For example, the last investigation that Animal Justice did was at a pig farm in Ontario. This aired on CTV's W5 program. It resulted in a conviction against the pig farm for a lethal C-section on a live, conscious pig in what industry would call a “slash and grab” to remove the piglets, and also in a conviction for castrating piglets and docking their tails without anaesthesia.

Unfortunately, the animal farming industry in Canada has been pushing agricultural gag laws—so-called “ag-gag” laws—that make it illegal to do this type of undercover work on farms and in order to shut down videos of animal cruelty. These laws first started sweeping the United States in the 2010s and are now also law, as we've heard, in Alberta and in Ontario. It's illegal in those provinces for journalists and whistle-blowers to go undercover on a farm. It turns that conduct into a trespass. We believe those two laws are unconstitutional, as they restrict free expression under the charter, which is why we are challenging Ontario's law in court. That case will be heard starting on October 30. U.S. ag-gag laws have also been challenged and struck down in six states now.

This bill targets anyone unlawfully on a farm, which in Ontario and Alberta includes undercover workers and journalists. The language prohibiting taking a “thing” into a farm seems targeted at a hidden camera that an undercover worker or journalist might wear and puts these whistle-blowers at significant risk of prosecution simply for bringing images to the world. The ban on undercover work makes this bill vulnerable to a constitutional challenge.

I'll note that in Canada, biosecurity protocols are currently entirely voluntary, and studies show that adherence to them on farms is poor. We've analyzed decades of data from the CFIA, and in a report that I will provide to this committee, we've seen that farmers are responsible for most biosecurity issues and that a sit-in has never caused a disease. It tends to be standard farm practices like sharing needles, having wild animals access farms and using contaminated equipment across different areas that spread disease.

This committee also received a letter from 19 infectious disease specialists. They note that undercover video is good for biosecurity and actually spurred on one of the largest food safety-based recalls in U.S. history. These experts conclude that this bill seeks to weaponize genuine concerns about infectious diseases and animal and human health in order to increase protection of private businesses from bad publicity.

I'll say as well that this bill doesn't address any legal gap. Provinces do have trespass laws already, but more to the point, there is also the Criminal Code. All of the sit-ins referenced last week resulted in criminal convictions, and these are the most serious charges possible, like break and enter, mischief and theft.

For example, we're going to hear from a Mr. Binnendyk on the next panel about the Excelsior Hog Farm sit-in, which occurred after videos emerged showing pretty troubling conditions on farms, including some pigs that couldn't walk and slowly died on a filthy concrete floor. Two people were convicted and sentenced to jail time after the sit-in, which is actually the harshest known sentence in Canadian history for a peaceful protest of this nature.

I'll just conclude by saying that I know committee members have been hearing from a lot of constituents who have concerns about this bill, and I urge you not to dismiss those concerns. It's time to pause and consider why it is that public trust in farming is so low. I would say that it's not because people are misinformed; it's because they see video after video of animals being beaten on farms, animals with severe medical conditions that don't get treatment, and animals being killed in brutal ways.

They see conditions the public simply no longer accepts, and they're frustrated by the lack of laws and the secrecy. The response to these legitimate public concerns should not be to pass laws that further undermine transparency.

Thank you.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow

Thank you very much, Ms. Labchuk. We appreciate your submission.

Now we will turn to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. I don't know if it's going to be Dr. Ireland.

We'll start with you for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

8:25 a.m.

Dr. Mary Jane Ireland Executive Director, Animal Health Directorate, Chief Veterinary Officer for Canada, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Thank you very much.

We are pleased to be here to speak with you today as you continue your consideration of this private member's bill, Bill C-275, an act to amend the Health of Animals Act, with regard to biosecurity on farms.

The CFIA is a science-based regulatory agency and is dedicated to safeguarding animal health, plant health and food safety to enhance the health and well-being of Canadians, the environment and the economy. In this capacity, the CFIA administers and enforces a variety of legislation, including the Health of Animals Act, which Bill C-275 seeks to amend.

The primary objective of the Health of Animals Act is to protect animals and prevent the transmission of federally regulated animal diseases and toxic substances to both animals and humans. The CFIA employs highly skilled veterinarians, veterinary inspectors and other inspectors, who administer and enforce the Health of Animals Act. Under the act, CFIA inspectors have the authority to conduct inspections, seize and detain animals or things, investigate cases of non-compliance and recommend prosecution when it is appropriate to do so.

CFIA inspectors are not peace officers. They do not have the authority to detain persons who violate the Health of Animals Act.

The CFIA works with various stakeholders, including producers, to help protect animal health and prevent the spread of diseases, including through the development of animal biosecurity measures, which can be implemented by producers on their farms.

Animal biosecurity is an area of shared responsibility. It involves federal, provincial and territorial governments, as well as industry associations and producers.

The Health of Animals Act and its regulations contain biosecurity requirements for federally regulated diseases. Provinces and territories may also develop and enforce their own biosecurity requirements. Provinces and territories provide funding to producers to improve biosecurity measures and to support certain disease-control activities.

In addition, the CFIA, industry, academic institutions and provinces and territories have worked together to develop voluntary national biosecurity standards. These standards outline the practices and protocols for farmers to routinely implement in order to prevent animals from being exposed to disease at the farm level.

In Canada, most on-farm biosecurity standards are voluntary, and farmers are responsible for implementing biosecurity standards on their premises. While these standards are voluntary, several industry associations have integrated parts of them into their mandatory on-farm programs. This collaborative effort between industry associations and producers has promoted the use and adherence to on-farm biosecurity measures, and these measures, combined with other regulatory requirements, help to reduce the threat of disease spread and to maintain market access.

While the objectives of Bill C-275 are commendable, we would like to identify a few considerations regarding the current text of the bill.

The current wording poses legal risks. It does not account for existing provincial and territorial jurisdiction over property and civil rights. Almost every province has legislation to address trespassing, and five provinces have passed enhanced private property legislation to prohibit trespassing at locations where animals are kept.

At the federal level, the Criminal Code includes prohibitions related to trespassing, such as mischief and breaking and entering, and these provisions have been successfully used to convict individuals who have engaged in this type of activity. There is a risk the prohibition may not be a valid exercise of federal agricultural power, which is understood to be limited to agricultural operations that are inside the farm gate.

The bill also presents enforcement challenges. The Crown would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused understood the risk of disease transmission as a result of entering the premise or that they acted recklessly to expose an animal to disease or toxic substances. Additionally, the police of local jurisdiction would need to respond to trespassing incidents, as CFIA officials are not peace officers.

We would encourage you to take these considerations into account as you continue your study of this bill.

Mr. Chair, I hope this provides a general overview of the CFIA's role in animal health and biosecurity as well as an overview of some of the challenges with the current text of the bill. We welcome any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Barlow

Thank you, Dr. Ireland. It's always great to have you at the committee. We appreciate your testimony.

Colleagues, we have time for one round for sure. I'll try to do a second round; we'll see how the timing goes. We may have to tighten them up a little bit to make sure that we get that second round in. We'll deal with that when we get there.

Witnesses, we'll go to each party. They'll get six minutes in the first round of questions, and we'll start with the Conservatives.

Ms. Rood, you have six minutes, please.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today on this important bill.

I'm a farmer. Ms. Labchuk, you mentioned that you believe that public trust is low with our farmers, but I beg to differ as a farmer who has to adhere to the very strictest of food safety standards—some of the strictest, actually, in the world. Whether it's CFIA regulations, provincial food safety regulations, or even standards set by each individual agricultural sector, we adhere to the strictest of standards. In fact, there's a headline here, and I'll read it back to you: “Firefighters, nurses, farmers respected most by Canadians”.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement. I trust our farmers. With their practices for ensuring food safety in this country, our farmers are some of the safest in the world

I just have a few questions for you.

Have you ever been on a farm?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

I grew up in rural Prince Edward Island, so I've been on plenty of farms.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Have you lived on a farm?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

No, I didn't grow up on a farm.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Okay.

Have you ever cared for livestock on a farm at all?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

I've been around plenty of farmed animals.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Then you've never cared for livestock yourself or cared for them on a farm.

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

Do you mean have I owned farmed animals—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Yes. Have you cared for them?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

—or have I actually farmed them? No. As I've mentioned, I'm a lawyer, not a farmer.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Okay.

Do you think that animals should be used for food?

October 5th, 2023 / 8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

The mission of Animal Justice.... I want to be really clear about what I'm here to say to you today.

We exist to lead the legal fight for animals. We work to improve the legal protections for animals. As I've mentioned—and I appreciate what you're saying about food safety—unfortunately we actually do have some of the worst animal protection legislation in the western world.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Do you think that animals should be used for food?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

Look, we're here today to talk about—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

It's a yes-or-no answer.

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

—improving the laws protecting animals. It's undeniable that Canada doesn't have any of those laws on the books right now. When you look at—

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you because there wasn't an answer to that question. I'll go to my next question.

Do you believe that animals should have the same legal standing as humans?

8:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Animal Justice

Camille Labchuk

What do you mean, exactly, by “legal standing”?