Agriculture Committee on Oct. 5th, 2023

[Camille Labchuk]

I do have concerns in that situation. In Ontario and in Alberta we have these ag-gag laws that make it illegal to go undercover to work on a farm. Those laws say that you can't use a false pretense to get a position on a farm, so someone who applies for a job and doesn't disclose that they intend to film, for instance, would be offside of that law and would be committing a provincial trespass. That applies because this bill, of course, says the word “unlawful”, and that is key in determining whether someone is caught by it.

The other thing that's troubling to me here is the language. It says what's key here is that taking in a thing or attending unlawfully at a farm could result in the exposure of animals to a disease or toxic substance. It's very nebulous language. It's not clear. In my view it's risky.

I would point out as well that people who might be employees could sign a restrictive employment agreement requiring them to report abuse or misconduct only to management or not at all.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

My next question is for Dr. Ireland. Do you think we need laws that would amend the mandate of the CFIA to include stronger animal rights provisions?

I appreciate that you are here as a member of the CFIA, but you're also a vet. You swore an oath as a vet that in your professional conduct you would ensure the well-being of animals. I'm wondering if you can comment, as a veterinarian, on whether or not you think we have to have stronger laws in this country to protect the rights of animals, as Animal Justice is suggesting. If so, is that a mandate that should fall within the CFIA or is that a mandate that should be an authority given to a new agency within the country? I'm asking you as a vet.

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

You are correct: I'm both a veterinarian and a CFIA employee.

The area of animal welfare is actually a shared jurisdiction in this country. It's both provincial-territorial and federal. CFIA has oversight over the transportation of animals into, within and out of the country under the transportation regulations that oversee that. As well, the safe food for Canadians regulations oversee the humane slaughter of animals in processing plants. The provinces and territories also have animal welfare responsibilities for things that occur on farm, so with the suite between federal and provincial and the sharing of areas, I do think we have animal welfare and health covered in this country.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Now we go to Mr. Perron for two and a half minutes, please.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Ireland, I'm picking up a little on what Mr. Steinley said. We all know that farmers take care of their farms and that they are all conscientious.

Let's say, however, that one exception exists. If someone from the outside the farm suspects that it's mistreating animals, is there a mechanism they could use other than trespassing on the farm? No one here wants to condone trespassing.

What could an individual do if they saw something happening on a farm? It could be someone from three farms over or whoever. Without trespassing, which is a criminal offence, how could they report it to you?

[Dr. Mary Jane Ireland]

On-farm activities would be covered by the provinces, largely, so if someone was concerned about the welfare of animals they could contact, for example, in Ontario, the Ontario ministry of agricultural and rural affairs. Provincially, that's how they could address or raise their concerns.

There's also law enforcement, which could then channel the questions and the concerns in an appropriate way. The CFIA certainly could be called, but we would defer that to the provinces in most cases. If it is a humane transportation issue—animals on a truck—or an issue at a slaughterhouse, that would be under our purview.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much. So there is a way to do something.

Ms. Labchuk, don't you think that people who suspect poor conditions on a farm could use these processes instead of trespassing?

I'd like you to comment on that.

[Camille Labchuk]

Just to be clear, we don't trespass. We don't support trespassing, but it's very difficult for anyone to see what's going on to make that report in the first place. It tends to happen only when there's an undercover whistle-blower who comes forward.

I'll say, just for example, that in Ontario the person who you would call if you have a concern would be at the provincial Animal Welfare Services. There are about 100 inspectors who work at Animal Welfare Services, and there are thousands of farms in the province, so they're very stretched. They don't have the capacity to proactively inspect farms, and that's why we have to rely on reports that come out from whistle-blowers, which are so rare.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

What would happen if a report was made?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Your time is up, Mr. Perron.

Thank you, Ms. Labchuk.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In response to Mr. Steinley's comments, I actually don't believe that we're putting our farmers on trial here. It was the Conservatives who brought this bill forward—Bill C-275—and I believe that as a committee we owe it to Canada's farmers, the public and our regulatory agencies to do a deep dive into proposed legislation. We ultimately owe it to everyone to make sure that the bills we're passing into law are doing what their intended purpose is.

Ms. Labchuk, here's what I wanted to ask you. From the documented evidence that you have reviewed, would you agree that most documented disease outbreaks on farms have actually been caused by people who were there with lawful authority and excuse?

[Camille Labchuk]

I would agree with that. That seems to be very consistent with the evidence we have. It does not tend to be trespassers or unwanted visitors who bring pathogens onto farms: It's often people who don't follow the rules.

Mr. Steinley spoke about protocols on dairy farms. I'll note that one study showed that on Canadian dairy farms—and this was in 2019—less than 15% of farms had measures in place to limit or control visitors coming on and only half required visitors to adhere to infection minimization processes like changing boots and clothing. I think that oftentimes there are poor practices in place that don't comply with the voluntary biosecurity protocols.

Mr. Steinley also mentioned the C-section I described. I think that gets to the root of why people are concerned about customs on farms—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I only have a bit of time. I don't want to go down that.... I just want to say that if the evidence is showing that most, or the overwhelming majority, of disease outbreaks are caused by people who are there with lawful authority and excuse, I think we are making the case that this particular section of this bill needs to be removed.

If our ultimate goal as a committee is to help farmers prevent disease outbreaks, I think we obviously have to be taking a look at how current biosecurity measures are working across this country and whether the federal government needs to update its policies and regulations or even provide more financial resources to help farmers.

I support farmers raising animals for consumption, but we also want to make sure that we are proactive enough in addressing what the evidence shows us. I'll end with that comment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thanks, Mr. MacGregor.

Thanks to our witnesses.

I have just one question for Dr. Lazare.

You did a great job of answering Mr. Carr's question, but regarding a couple of questions on the constitutionality of this bill, private members' bill or other legislation that comes to committee or goes through this process is vetted by the Library of Parliament and various departments to ensure constitutionality. Is that not correct?

[Dr. Jodi Lazare]

I do believe that's the case, yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

We'll take a very quick break, colleagues, so that we can get two rounds in for the next one as well. We'll take two minutes as we switch out our witnesses.

Again, Ms. Labchuk, Dr. Lazare and Dr. Ireland and your team, thank you very much for being here today. We appreciate your testimony.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

I call the meeting back to order.

Good morning, colleagues. We're going to get started with our second panel.

We have Mr. Binnendyk online, but we have some interpretation issues with his connection. We might have to wait on him, but I want to make sure that we get started. We'll hopefully have Mr. Binnendyk available when the questions and answers start.

I'll introduce our next panel, colleagues.

We have René Roy, chair of the Canadian Pork Council, and Mr. Binnendyk, an owner and producer.

From the Dairy Farmers of Canada, we have David Wiens, president, and Daniel Gobeil, vice-president.

From Humane Canada, we have Dr. Toolika Rastogi in person, as well as Erin Martellani online.

We will carry on as quickly as we can to try to get the two rounds in. We will start with the Conservatives for six minutes.

Mr. Lehoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

Oh, I apologize. We'll start with Mr. Roy for five minutes, please.

[René Roy, Chair, Canadian Pork Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to Bill C‑275 this morning.

My name is René Roy. I am chair of the Canadian Pork Council and a hog producer in Quebec. This morning, Ray Binnendyk is joining us as a producer and a member of the B.C. Pork Producers Association. He has felt the direct impact of what this bill seeks to address on a number of occasions.

We are supportive of this bill for three main reasons.

This bill will help us to stem the flow of disinformation prevalent in certain corners of the Internet, like videos taken from non-Canadian farms that have been used to justify these kinds of activities. That needs to stop, as Ray will testify shortly.

There are existing mechanisms already in place for legitimate concerns. Our provincial organizations work quite closely with provincial regulators to ensure that animals are cared for, and there is a process that has to be respected. Imagine if it were suddenly legal for people to walk into a bank and start taking pictures of bankers as they work because these people who are protesting have decided they know better or, worse, that banking should no longer exist. This is the fight we're having.

Finally, the threats from biosecurity are real. Our producers shower into and shower out of their barns. We have established biosecurity protocols that prevent diseases from being introduced by humans who don't respect biosecurity standards. That could hurt our animals. We expect to hear that our partners in the legitimate animal protection organizations will join us in supporting efforts to keep animals safe.

Thank you.

I hope Ray has been able to connect. I will leave him some time to introduce himself.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Ray is still not ready, so carry on. You have two more minutes if you want them, and we'll see if we can get Mr. Binnendyk in on some of the questions.

[René Roy]

I will take 30 seconds instead of two minutes just to introduce Ray. He is a producer who has been affected by these kinds of intrusions on farms.

I would like to mention that those who are taking care of the animals on farms are farmers, in fact. We are the ones taking care of the animals every day. This is our business. Our ability to take care of our animals is affected when there are intrusions. It is our livelihood. It is also our home, because we work these farms the whole day. It is where we live. If people are entering in ways that are not permitted, it prevents our ability to take care of our animals properly.

I think it's important that this bill also addresses the question of biosecurity how diseases can enter, as has already been mentioned, through human vectors.

For all of these reasons, I think the bill should proceed, and we are certainly supportive of it.

Hopefully, Ray will be able to testify a bit later through the questions.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Roy.

We'll keep an eye on Mr. Binnendyk and hopefully get that resolved for the question period.

We'll now go to Mr. Wiens for five minutes, please.

[David Wiens, President, Dairy Farmers of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is a pleasure for me to join you today from my family farm in Grunthal, Manitoba.

I would like to also thank the committee members for this opportunity to talk a bit about our situation.

My name is David Wiens. I'm the president of Dairy Farmers of Canada. I am joined by our vice-president, Daniel Gobeil, with whom I will be sharing some of my speaking time today.

On behalf of Canadian dairy farmers, it is a privilege to be here to share our views on Bill C-275, an act to amend the Health of Animals Act, which is basically biosecurity on farms.

Supplying Canadian families with safe, nutritious and high-quality dairy products is the paramount mission for us as dairy farmers, and we cannot accomplish that mission unless we can ensure that our cattle themselves are healthy, safe and secure.

Canadian dairy farmers adhere to a mandatory and coordinated national quality assurance framework, which we know as proAction. This framework constantly evolves to reflect best practices and includes programs with strict requirements in a number of key areas, and that of course includes animal care and biosecurity. It's a program that Canadian dairy farmers are proud of and one that the National Farm Animal Care Council recently assessed. The council found that it met and exceeded all requirements of Canada’s animal care assessment framework.

DFC worked with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency to develop the national standard for biosecurity for Canadian dairy farmers. The most critical elements of this national standard are incorporated into proAction’s biosecurity module, which requires strict measures at every Canadian dairy farm to mitigate the risk of exposure to dangerous diseases or toxic substances that could threaten animal health.

In this regard, controlling traffic and visitors is essential. Dangerous pathogens can be introduced and spread by contaminated footwear, clothing and hands, as well as vehicles, farm machinery and other equipment. This is why we have strong standards and protocols in Canada that we should actually be proud of.

Such standards are compromised when visitors from the outside do not follow the correct protocols. This is true regardless of the purpose or intent of the individuals seeking uncontrolled access to the farm. Dangerous pathogens do not respect intentions. They are opportunistic disease vectors that can devastate herds and destroy farm livelihoods.

Now I will pass this on to my colleague Mr. Gobeil for a few further comments.

[Daniel Gobeil, Vice-President, Dairy Farmers of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wiens.

Thank you, honourable committee members.

Of course, Dairy Farmers of Canada, or DFC, agrees with parliamentarians when it comes to the fundamental rights of Canadian, including the right to express their views in public spaces.

However, our farms are not public spaces.

Our farms, our businesses—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

I'm sorry. I hate to interrupt, Mr. Gobeil, but can you move the boom on your mike up a bit, the actual microphone part?

Thank you. Carry on.

[Daniel Gobeil]

Thank you.

In fact, our farms are not public spaces; they are our homes, the places where we raise our families. Obviously, it's very important for us to preserve this vocation.

We need to strike a balance between fundamental rights and reasonable safety measures that protect the health, safety and welfare of animals and the people who work on farms and in the food supply chain. For that reason, Dairy Farmers of Canada supports Bill C‑275.

I'd like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work of the member for Foothills, who sponsored this bill.

We feel that this new bill improves on Bill C‑205 because it expands the scope of protection to situations where animals and things are kept in enclosed spaces.

However, in our view, Bill C‑275 doesn't fully achieve its objective and parts of it must be amended. The provision about the offender knowing or being reckless as to exposing animals to disease or toxic substances should be removed, as we believe it places an unrealistic burden of proof on the Crown.

The mere possibility that entry without authorization or legal justification might expose our animals to a disease or toxic substance should be sufficient grounds for prosecution. We can elaborate on our comments during the question period.

In closing, Mr. Chair, on behalf of Dairy Farmers of Canada, I'd like to thank you and the committee members for helping to enhance animal safety and continue to improve agricultural production—