Agriculture Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

All right, thank you.

You're saying something is missing. Do you mean that traceability is lost from the moment the animal is slaughtered, for example? Is that what you're telling me?

[Pierre Lampron]

Yes. Traceability is regulated up to the slaughterhouse, but after that, it's no longer regulated. Some things are done voluntarily, but there are no longer any regulations so that the consumer can know where the animal came from.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's another good reason to support more regional processing and encourage the improvement of short circuits, without necessarily closing down large processors and longer circuits.

[Pierre Lampron]

I'm sure there's enough room for both.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay, thank you.

Several witnesses have said that when farm animals get hit with a disease, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency provides adequate support, but it can take a long time and the resources are sometimes lacking. What do you have to say about that?

[Pierre Lampron]

I think there is good will. We need resources at the border, but we also need to react quickly when an outbreak occurs.

As we said earlier, there is already a great deal of co‑operation between the provinces and the federal government, but it takes resources, for example with regard to vaccination banks. Things have improved in that regard, but those companies need the vaccines, which is very important.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Is there enough support for vaccine development in Quebec and in Canada?

[Pierre Lampron]

Progress has been made in recent years, but there is still a lot of room for improvement. Vaccines are a good way to control diseases, and vaccine banks are necessary. It's a step in the right direction, but more needs to be done.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Currently, certain diseases are threatening to affect animals, such as avian influenza and swine fever. Do you think Canada is prepared for a crisis of this magnitude? Are there gaps in vaccine capacity?

[Pierre Lampron]

It's not a question of being ready. These diseases must not come into our country. That's why biosecurity is so important. We have to check wildlife and animals coming across the border. We have to be on our guard all the time and do as much as we can—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I understand from your answer that we aren't ready and that it would take more resources and vaccine banks. Would you agree with that?

[Pierre Lampron]

I agree.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Perron.

Now Mr. MacGregor has the floor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Lockwood, I'd like to start with you. Welcome back to our committee. It's wonderful to see you here, providing an important perspective from Vancouver Island.

I really appreciated your talking about how, in relations between farmers and the CFIA, there is room for improvement. I also appreciated how, in your opening statement, you detailed the multiple crises that farmers, particularly in British Columbia, have gone through with the heat dome and the atmospheric river, followed by avian influenza. It seems like the hits keep on coming.

You had to do a lot of learning as you were in the middle of those crises. They may not have directly impacted your farm, but the danger was always there, hanging over your head like a sword of Damocles. We know with other outbreaks—we don't even have the names yet—it's not a question of if but when.

What I'd like to know from you is what you would appreciate, as a farmer, from the CFIA in being proactive. Would you prefer more bulletins or more up-to-date awareness of what the potential threats are? Is there anything you can add in that specific area?

I believe preparedness is the key, and we want to equip our farmers to be ready for any eventuality that might come and affect our regions.

[Cammy Lockwood]

I think it is actually more just a good working relationship and understanding between the two groups. Farmers are very practical and just jump in and get things done. It seems that CFIA was more about everything following the rules to the letter, and that had some major implications. It was the difference between the two that seemed to rub people on both sides the wrong way.

Definitely having some more information and truly understanding the process of what happens when there is an AI outbreak on a farm would be very helpful, because even for us, we're not 100% sure of who to call. We know we'd start somewhere and then we'd work down the list of how to notify people.

It's also about retesting and having enough testing facilities. I do know that the Lower Mainland lab was severely affected by the floods, and that impacted our salmonella testing for two years after the event. Having regular testing and also being able to retest a flock that isn't showing any symptoms means we won't be accidentally or intentionally depopulating healthy flocks.

I think a few things like that would go a long way in working with CFIA.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's wonderful. Thank you very much for that.

Dr. Joly, I'd like to turn to you.

I think we've taken away the message that surveillance of wild populations is critical. Have you or any of your colleagues noticed, with climate change and how it is severely impacting the northern hemisphere in some pretty profound ways, that some of those unintended consequences or unintended impacts are different migration patterns of species that are not native to our areas?

Is that having any kind of impact on disease spread? Are you noticing any patterns, something that we as a committee or the federal government should keep its eye on with the changing climate and the different species that may be coming as a result of that?

[Dr. Damien Joly]

We have absolutely. Thank you for the question.

Science is difficult. We're not able to actually draw a line and say that, if it weren't for climate change, we wouldn't see this disease, but we certainly are seeing different migration patterns. Even in the example of avian influenza, highly pathogenic avian influenza, this H5N1 strain, has been in Asia since 2005 or 2006. It's only now, in the last two years, that it has shown up. It came not only over the Atlantic but also over the Pacific. For 15 or 20 years there was nothing, and then we have it jump both oceans twice in one year.

One could infer that climate change is definitely having an impact. Theoretically we can predict that climate change will continue to have impacts on the spread of disease and potentially bring new pathogens that we haven't seen before. For example, malaria could come back to Canada as temperatures warm and so on and so forth, so that is very much the case.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

I have just a final question for the CFA.

It's good to see you here, Monsieur Lampron. We have had a lot of conversations before this committee on voluntary biosecurity guidelines. We have seen that some of the worst outbreaks have happened on farms and have been transmitted by people who have been authorized to be on one farm and they have carried it accidentally to another one.

I am just wondering. When we have these outbreaks and they are the result of biosecurity measures not being enforced—if that turns out to be the result of the investigation—do you think there might be a stronger role for the federal government to get involved in the voluntary aspect of these biosecurity guidelines, if we really want to make sure we're nailing these down before they become full-blown crises?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Unfortunately you're going to have to take note of that, Mr. Lampron, because Mr. MacGregor tried to go over time and got right to six minutes on his question. He has two and a half minutes coming up, and I'll turn that over to you at that time.

Mr. Steinley, you're going to go first, but we have only five minutes for you, so use it wisely.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Mr. Chair. That's good solid advice.

I do have one question and it's for Mr. Berrigan.

In an upcoming study, this committee is going to be looking at animal transport regulations and the use of ELDs. I'm just wondering, when it comes to biodiversity, if you think the government has inadvertently allowed some more intermingling of animals. For example, if someone gets not quite to their destination and they have to unload and then reload livestock at a facility, could that have an adverse effect in terms of some of the biosecurity concerns we have around animals?

We could look at changing some of the animal transport regulations. They might not have to unload and reload, and they could get to their point of destination within the desired timeline. Is that something CFIA has thought about, and is there a way we could make it so that the animals wouldn't have to be loaded and unloaded as much as they are now under these new regulations?

[Brodie Berrigan]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, we have certainly put a lot of thought into this issue, and it is something that's very concerning for our members. As you know, a driver—at least the way I understand it—can't drive more than 13 hours, or after having been on duty for 14 hours. The ELD, or electronic logging device, will automatically begin calculating a driver's hours of service as soon as the truck reaches approximately six kilometres an hour, which doesn't always align with when the animals are actually loaded onto the truck.

That can have some unintended and adverse consequences, both from an animal welfare perspective and from a biosecurity perspective because, as you said, there are these rest stops where animals can commingle and they can spread disease. I'm sure it wasn't ever anyone's intended effect or impact, but it's something we need to look at.

One of the things we would recommend is looking at better alignment and closer alignment with the U.S. regulations, in this case, especially since there's so much cross-border traffic between Canada and the U.S.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I was just going to put that on the record. Something whereby they have about a 150-mile radius at their home and at their destination that isn't considered to be logging hours is something that would be really beneficial here in Canada.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Lehoux.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Steinley. I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Lampron or Mr. Berrigan, in your last intervention, you talked about international trade, which generates a lot of traffic at the border. We know that we have a long border with the United States.

Do you have any information on the ability of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, in co‑operation with border services, to conduct all the necessary controls at our borders?

[Pierre Lampron]

We have been asking for this for a long time. These people are showing good will, and I think they want to do a good job. However, they need additional resources in terms of personnel, knowledge and training. They need training, among other things, on what to look for.