Agriculture Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

I call the meeting to order.

I understand from Mr. Perron that we'll have a little bit of committee business at the end of today's meeting regarding the documents from our grocery company, so we'll maybe deal with that at the very end of the second hour. With just two witnesses in that second hour, we shouldn't have a problem dealing with that relatively quickly.

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 82 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

I have a few reminders for out witnesses.

Today's meeting is happening in a hybrid format. The meetings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Taking screenshots is prohibited. There will specifically be no taking of screenshots of our witnesses.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately. We will ensure interpretation is properly restored and we'll make sure you have sufficient time.

Before speaking, please wait for me to recognize you and then, if you are on video, click on your microphone or unmute yourself. If you're in the chamber, your microphone will be controlled by the staff here.

When speaking, please speak clearly and slowly for the benefit of our interpreters. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Colleagues, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2).... Just before I go to that, I guess we have a couple of substitutes today.

Mr. Shields is joining us for Ms. Rood. Welcome. It's certainly not your first rodeo. Welcome.

Ms. Mathyssen is substituting for Mr. MacGregor. Welcome.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by this committee on Thursday, October 19, 2023, this committee is resuming its study of electronic logging device requirements and animal livestock transport.

I would like to welcome the witnesses on our panel today. We have Dr. Raymond Reynen, past president of the Canadian Association of Bovine Veterinarians, who is joining us online.

From the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, we have Mr. Pierre Lampron and Mr. Scott Ross.

We have here with us in person, from the Canadian Sheep Federation, Corlena Patterson, executive director.

Thank you very much for coming.

To all of our witnesses, you'll have five minutes for your opening remarks and then we will start our rounds of questioning.

I will now invite Dr. Reynen from the bovine veterinarians association to start to start for five minutes, please.

[Dr. Raymond Reynen, Past President, Canadian Association of Bovine Veterinarians]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and all members of the standing committee. The Canadian Association of Bovine Veterinarians, CABV/ACVB, is grateful to be granted the opportunity to present to this standing committee. Our association represents 759 veterinarians who are either in clinical practice, government, academia or industry, across all provinces in Canada.

ELDs, or electronic logging devices, are an effective tool to document service and driving hours. However, ELDs do not provide insight into occurrences during those hours that may necessitate flexibility in the enforcement of regulations. This lack of flexibility will then place drivers in a difficult position: Either the drivers comply with the hours of service regulation by going off duty, or they do what they know is right for animal welfare and get the cattle to their planned unloading site.

The vast majority of animal trailers are passively ventilated, so when the trailer is not in motion, the cattle will not receive appropriate airflow to ensure ideal ventilation rates and temperature control for the cattle. This is a threat to animal welfare.

The Canadian animal transport industry is carefully planned to follow all transportation guidelines. Nonetheless, adverse road and weather conditions, traffic accidents, border crossing delays or delays at packing plants cannot be planned for. It is for these inevitable delays that we are seeking flexibility in the use of ELDs to ensure the well-being of the animals being transported.

The CABV is hoping that a threat to animal welfare will be considered as an emergency situation and then will be covered under section 76 of the hours of service regulations. This will then provide clarity to enforcement officers, peace of mind to animal haulers, and, most importantly, not impair the welfare of cattle in Canada.

Cattle welfare is of paramount concern for the CABV. Hopefully we can attain some clarity of definitions and flexibility in the enforcement of hours of service with ELDs to ensure we maintain the highest level of welfare for cattle in Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Reynen. That was short and to the point. I appreciate that.

Now we'll go to Mr. Ross for five minutes.

[Scott Ross, Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

My name is Scott Ross. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. I should be joined shortly by our vice-president, Pierre Lampron, who is a dairy farmer from Quebec.

The CFA is Canada largest general farm organization. We represent over 190,000 farmers and farm families across Canada. They are the heart of the Canadian agri-food system, generating $135 billion of Canada's gross domestic product.

The concern farmers and ranchers have with electronic logging devices is not about hours of service but about recognizing the unique accommodations and flexibility required for the humane transport of animals. Our cargo, unlike freight, has unique temperaments that can lead to challenges and delays in getting the animals loaded or unloaded. Due to this, sometimes it takes longer to load a particular group than was planned. This can see the ELD beginning to calculate hours of service well before animals are loaded, putting unrealistic time constraints on farmers and drivers.

Drivers take their jobs very seriously, and animal care is a big part of transporting live cargo. Patience and attention to detail are crucial for animal transporters. Drivers hauling live animals cannot simply pull into a rest area and go off duty if they unexpectedly cannot get to their destination within their hours of service. Most of our livestock trailers are passively ventilated, which means the load cannot remain stationary for prolonged periods of time; it must be kept moving to attain optimum airflow and temperature control.

The issue at the heart of the matter is that unforeseen delays or events coupled with the functionality of the ELDs and hours of service can lead to animal welfare issues. These unforeseen situations can include adverse weather, traffic accidents, border crossing delays, road closures and breakdowns at processing plants that can hold up loading times.

We are not seeking a blanket exemption from ELDs or hours of service, but instead flexibility in enforcement of hours of service when unforeseen circumstances arise. We cannot leave drivers in difficult situations when doing what's best for animals would see them fall out of compliance with hours of service regulations.

As it stands, the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations permit drivers to extend the driving time allowed during adverse driving conditions or emergency situations in order to reach their destination for the safety of the occupants and the security of the load. However, it's unclear whether this includes animal welfare considerations, leaving the matter open to interpretation by individual officers.

Ideally, Canada would align with U.S. transport regulations and provide an exemption for animal transporters from drivers' on-time duty within a 240 air-kilometre radius of their load's origin and destination. This would not only align regulations on both sides of the border but would also recognize the unique considerations needed when transporting live animals.

However, this regulatory alignment could take time. In the interim, we need immediate guidance for all enforcement officers that clearly states that animal welfare issues are defined as emergency situations in subsections 76(1) and 76(2) of the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations.

There are precedents for such treatment, with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency accommodating infrequent unforeseen events in their enforcement of feed, water and rest intervals.

Both driver safety and animal welfare need to be considered. This requires an interdepartmental solution from Transport Canada, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak today. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross. I appreciate your comments.

Now we go to Ms. Patterson for five minutes, please.

[Corlena Patterson, Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation]

Good morning. Thank you. It's an honour to present our insights to this distinguished committee today.

My name is Corlena Patterson. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Sheep Federation, a position I've held for over a decade. I'm here to share the realities and challenges faced by our particular sector due to the implementation of ELDs in commercial livestock transportation. We're grateful for this opportunity to speak to you, despite today being Ottawa's first pop quiz on winter driving.

Despite its quiet profile, our industry plays a significant and dynamic role in Canada's agricultural tapestry. Our sector boasts close to 12,000 farms, ranging from eco-conscious scaled operations to substantial commercial enterprises. In fact, the community of sheep farms in Canada outnumbers that of dairy farms and is on par with those of pork and poultry farms put together.

Our industry's profile necessitates the long-distance transport of live animals from their rearing locations to their processing sites. With 80%, or the majority, of our processing occurring at provincially inspected facilities, we're compelled to move live animals for long distances across the country to get them near to the ultimate market destinations.

A recent environmental impact assessment of our supply chain that we did in conjunction with Clarkson University conservatively estimated that to transport approximately 275,000 head of sheep and lambs to various processing centres, our haulers covered over 914,000 kilometres. These figures are based on StatsCan numbers, which we know tend to underestimate the size and scope of our industry. Our own administrative data suggests that the real number pushes closer to 900,000 head, and this would mean that our haulers traverse three million miles to ensure our animals reach their intended processing sites. These numbers emphasize the critical nature of efficient and effective transportation in our sector.

Based on the complexities and the nature of the animals, the transportation of live animals is in stark contrast to that of moving inanimate goods, as I'm sure you've heard from many who have spoken to you through this hearing. Delays are inherent in the loading and unloading processes and in transportation events. They arise from the temperament of animals, welfare-oriented loading and unloading practices and delays along the route. Such delays cut into drivers' hours of service and can lead to unplanned stops, which further complicate adherence to humane transportation regulations. The potential for ELDs to count these non-driving hours towards total hours of service is a major concern.

The U.S. policy that exempts commercial livestock haulers from on-duty time within 150 miles of departure and destination sites is a recognition of these anticipated delays that are early and late in that transportation event. Such measures understand the intricate realities of animal transport and the necessity for regulations that are tuned to the industry's unique challenges. Similar Canadian exemptions would buffer against these unpredictabilities and safeguard animal welfare, ensuring compliance isn't compromised by variables outside of haulers' control.

Moreover, we have to understand the potential of negative public reactions to the sight of animals appearing to be in distress in haulers that are parked at rest stops along the 401. This concern goes beyond mere compliance; it's about the balance between maintaining regulatory standards and the agricultural sector's public image. The delicate balance underscores the need for thoughtful and flexible regulatory frameworks.

We recognize the significant role that transport plays for us, so we place the highest emphasis on animal health and welfare. Sheep react differently to transportation events than some other species do, so to ensure our practices are reflective of this, we've invested heavily in research to objectively validate welfare during transport. Our innovative approach has led to the development of artificial intelligence systems designed to actively assess, monitor and report on the welfare of animals in real time during that transportation event. The system not only substantiates stress levels but can also signal welfare issues to haulers and drivers as the issues arise. It can also validate the need for an exemption should drivers need to exceed their hours of service.

We also feel we have additional mechanisms that can support accurate logging of drive times for livestock transport. We have incoming traceability regulations that necessitate that every shipment, including that of sheep, is accompanied by movement documentation, which, by virtue of that regulation, requires that we mark departure and arrival times at sites.

Our latest innovation in that traceability field and the design of our AgroLedger traceability system transforms those records to digital and uses blockchain technology for the management of the data. This advancement not only allows the real-time recording of transport events [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

I'm sorry, Ms. Patterson, but we have Mr. Lampron on. I think he's testing his sound.

I'll pause your clock for one second.

[Corlena Patterson]

I know Pierre, so I won't take it out on him later.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

He owes you a glass of wine afterward.

[Corlena Patterson]

He does. Pierre owes me one now. I always like when the dairy guys are beholden.

As I was saying, our latest innovation, the AgroLedger traceability system, takes these records from paper to digital and uses blockchain to manage that data. The advancement not only allows for real-time recording of transport events but ensures the integrity and permanence of that data. Moreover, it facilitates immediate access to authorized personnel, such as transport departments, to verify that information. It ensures that the data is tamperproof and available on demand. It exemplifies our commitment to transparency and excellence in animal welfare during transportation.

When we consider the transport of live animals, it's imperative to advocate regulatory flexibility that acknowledges the intrinsic differences between living beings and inanimate cargo. Much in the same way that we have distinct licensures for drivers based on their cargo, be it TVs or people, it is essential to tailor transport regulations to reflect the unique needs of sentient animals during transit. This is not merely a logistical consideration but a fundamental aspect of animal welfare. The well-being of these animals must be at the forefront and transcend the mere movement of goods to ensure that the journey from farm to market honours the life and integrity of the livestock we're entrusted to look after.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Ms. Patterson. Again, I apologize for the interruption.

Pierre, now you know you have to.... On a morning like this morning, maybe a couple of dozen coffees and Baileys will make up for it, if that works for you.

Now you're quiet.

Thanks to our witnesses.

We will now move on to the questions. The first six minutes are from Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Yes, it's an interesting morning when the snow falls for the first time. Then it turns to ice.

I have questions for the witnesses.

I think most of you have identified two things: the definition and the flexibility. In my mind, it's about how we can clarify that definition. One of the things that I'm very familiar with is the integrated market for the livestock industry in the U.S. and Canada.

I'll start with the vets. When we're talking about flexibility in an integrated market, how does travel in our cattle industry in particular...? When you're looking for a definition of “flexibility” that fits the integrated market in the U.S. and Canada, what does that mean for you and the vets?

[Dr. Raymond Reynen]

We still want all the rules to be followed on both sides with the truckers going both ways. We don't expect that Canada just all of a sudden will follow all the Canadian rules, but we do expect that they will try very hard. We're just hoping that people are cognizant of the unforeseen events that could occur and have the flexibility to deal with them.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

The Canadian Federation of Agriculture talked about the same thing, the definition. How would you define “emergency”? That's the challenge, in a sense, when we have enforcement and we have a variety of people in an integrated market on both sides of the border and we have truck drivers on both sides of the border driving both ways, and it's the same truck driver. How do we get a definition that is going to work?

[Dr. Raymond Reynen]

That is a major struggle, and that was a main focus of our submission.

Because the vehicles are passively ventilated, ventilation is a serious problem when they're stopped. I would like to have it recognized once they're stopped, regardless of temperature, because when you start putting a temperature rule in, it just gets goofy.

Being at a stop is a threat because of the way they're ventilated, and if we start limiting air supply during warm weather, that is a problem. I would like it to be recognized that animals loaded in a vehicle parked on the side of the road are in an emergency to their welfare.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Ross, I'll ask you the same question.

[Scott Ross]

I would suggest that one point that's important to note here is that we're not necessarily talking about extensive periods past the hours of service limits. This is a small amount of time.

When it comes to flexibility, we look at the commercial vehicle drivers hours of service regulations. They already incorporate some flexibility around emergency situations, so this is not a fundamentally new approach; it's simply making sure that there is language specific to animal welfare considerations in the definition of emergency situations.

It therefore doesn't really fundamentally change how we approach the issue of flexibility; it just ensures that officers, when looking at their guidance and understanding what constitutes an emergency situation, also factor in those animal welfare considerations.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Hence, some explanation of what an emergency is, and maybe some training, would be an advantage. It's an understanding of what “emergency” means so that enforcement looks the same, whether you're in Nova Scotia or British Columbia.

[Scott Ross]

Yes. We would always be in favour of national consistency. Training is an absolutely critical component of that, certainly.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Patterson, for a little more on the question, I know, for example, that sheep are shipped from my riding to Ontario. This is not the issue of capacity; this is the issue of the market.

When the sheep in my area were shipped out by the producer, that producer was looking for the best market price. It wasn't the capacity they were talking about. It's the market price that can sometimes dictate long hauls in this country, right?

[Corlena Patterson]

It is, in fact, to an extent, a function of that capacity to process, and that really does dictate market prices. In the east, they will pay more for animals. That is where the processing facilities are, so there's an opportunity to do that. There's less transport involved and it's easier to get them to that marketplace. In the west, it's a lower price because of the transport and the “shrink” involved in getting them across the country.

On the capacity issue, if you had the capacity to process where you were and move meat as opposed to moving live animals, we would see a differentiation in the price paid to a western producer versus the price paid to an Ontario producer. It is what we have often argued in the price-versus-location argument.

I would argue that it's not always about the price. The price is driven by where the processors are. That's where they need sheep and that's where they pay for them to come to, but they have to come from somewhere, and there aren't enough in that jurisdiction to supply the demand that they have.

We can't process in Manitoba. We can't process in Saskatchewan. We can't process in B.C., New Brunswick, P.E.I. or Newfoundland and get those lambs and those sheep—not the live animals, but the meat—to any other province in the country.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Shields. Your time is up.

Now we'll go to Mr. MacDonald for six minutes, please.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair. I am going to go to Ms. Patterson.

I'm interested in hearing a little more about your blockchain database and some of the benefits you could tell us about in relation to the blockchain database, because it's really the first time I've heard about it in this committee.

[Corlena Patterson]

We would love to, because it's our favourite subject.

As a national industry organization representing primary producers, as my counterparts know, it becomes our role to deliver traceability. “Deliver” means getting producers engaged and participating, but it also means helping ensure that the government's regulatory requirements are upheld and met.

What that means in the Canadian context is that the government makes the regulations and says, “Here are the traceability regulations. Industry, make it happen.”

We have been involved in that because we've had mandatory ID in the sheep industry since 2004. We've been involved in delivering traceability for that amount of time. Traceability has evolved from simply tracking where animals go for reasons of disease response to tracking everything about that animal—tracking for export purposes, for product assurances and for disease monitoring.

I sit on Canada's FMD working group, the working group for foot-and-mouth disease. We just had a large discussion yesterday about whether we are going to use vaccines and about a vaccine strategy: How do we know which animals have been vaccinated? How do we know when to depopulate? It gets very complex. It's more than just looking at where they went; it's about the things that happened to that animal in its life that are important to somebody further down the chain.

In our mandate to deliver traceability and also to wrap all of those requirements into it, we felt that what existed in Canada—no disrespect to my counterparts—wasn't sufficient to do all of that in a single system, which is really where it needs to live, so we built a new technology from the ground up at the Canadian Sheep Federation.

You'll be surprised to hear “the Canadian Sheep Federation”, “blockchain” and “artificial intelligence” all in the same discussion.

We built a tracing system. At its core, it is designed to meet, and does meet, regulatory requirements for disease tracking. On top of that, it meets our industry's need to scan the tag and know something about the animal. When we challenged the industry to say what it needs from it, that's it.

Now, every player has a different need with regard to the data that it finds. However, the goal of our technology and our work in traceability is to create a system, an integrator of information about that animal, to affix that information, such as whether it's certified disease-free for export or is on an insurance program to meet some product-free requirement from an exporting country. All the data that we collect becomes part of the animal's history as the animal moves through the supply chain. By virtue of traceability, we connect one player to the next player, and we move that information with the animal.

We started working on this in 2019. We did a use case study with the community of federal regulators and the CFIA shortly after that, and that solidified that blockchain would be the best fit for livestock traceability. It's been uphill-downhill since then.

With regard to that system, that technology that we've built, we've now submitted a proposal to the CFIA for it to be the system used in the regulated space for traceability in Canada.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That was my next question: Do the regulators have access, or will they have access, to this database?