Agriculture Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Well, I would not say it's failing. Is it a tough fight? Yes. Is it worth the fight? Totally. Canadians depend on that. When I see Canadians across the country, they tap me on the back: Keep up the fight, sir, because you're fighting on behalf of 40 million of us.

Most Canadians don't have access to the CEO of Loblaws or Sobeys or Metro, but I demanded their presence in Ottawa and said that they needed to act and that what they did was not sufficient, so we amended the law. I think they get the point now that we're really serious about that. We're talking to our partners internationally. We're talking to international grocers, or what they call deep discounters. At the end of the day, the best way to offer more choice is to have more competition.

You don't need to take it from me. Just look at the chart. Canadians watching at home will say that this is the reality. Fifty per cent of the market is controlled by three companies. That's the reality. If you add Walmart and Costco, it's 80%. What we need is more competition.

If you're looking at me today, in five months I've taken probably more actions than any government in history, I would say—reforming competition, calling the CEOs, making sure we boost the consumer affairs bureau and putting $5 million toward consumer advocacy groups around the country.

In terms of the wherewithal of consumers, the biggest power, as you know, Mr. MacGregor, is consumers and where we spend our money—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Understood. I'm sorry, but my time is short.

With respect to the meeting with the CEOs, Metro CEO Eric La Flèche is on record as saying that the meeting did not actually result in much.

Now, we have seen through successive Liberal and Conservative governments that both of your parties have shown an incredible amount of corporate deference. You can see that deference over the last 40 years in the economic policies that you have both pursued. I think what Canadians really want to see is the pendulum start to swing back onto the side of consumers, back onto the side of farmers. I think what they want to know is this: Why should they rely on the goodwill of CEOs to lower food prices when we have a major CEO saying that your meeting did not result in anything?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

He's an outlier. I made sure they would understand. I made sure they would get the message. I said, “You can smile at me, and that's okay, but 40 million Canadians have more power than any corporate CEO can believe. We can move our purchasing power. Maybe you're smiling today, but we changed the law, and now the enforcement action has been taken. You don't need to take it from me. You've seen it.”

The Competition Bureau has taken action now. I think they hear now that we're really serious about that. I would say that Canadians understand. Is it an easy fight? No, but it's a fight worth having. I think the reform of competition will have the most long-lasting effect. You know, you're asking me, but we've been advocating; it's not only in the grocery sector, as you know, when you reform competition. This is the biggest reform in 40 years.

Therefore, I would just question the premise. Am I going hard? Pretty hard. Yes, you may have a comment like that, but do you know what? I said that they could smile at me, but they could not smile at millions of Canadians. At the end of the day, they're the ones making the final decisions.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Well, Minister, I think there is also room for improvement.

Let's take the Competition Bureau, the Competition Act and indeed the Competition Tribunal. A couple of weeks ago, there was an important vote in the House of Commons on NDP leader Jagmeet Singh's bill, Bill C‑352, bolstering increased legislative muscle for both those bodies.

The only party that voted against that bill was the Liberal Party, including you. Thankfully, that bill has now gone to committee, but I guess that when Canadians are looking for increased legislative action to fully equip our agencies for looking after these issues on behalf of Canadians, they want to know why you're voting against increasing powers for the Competition Bureau and the Competition Tribunal. Why are you against those legislative measures?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Well, I'm very happy for Canadians watching, because we've already done it. It's in Bill C‑59. We took the good ideas that were put forward and we added to that. The reason we say that we don't need a private member's bill is that we have a government bill that goes further. Canadians want to make sure we go further. That's the reason.

For folks at home, it's very simple: It's because the bill we had as a government was going further, incorporating a lot of the things that you were mentioning, but going even further. I mean, experts would say that it's the largest reform on competition that you've ever seen. We're going to lengthen the limitation period for non-notified mergers, we're going to have more private enforcement and we're going to make sure that the competition commissioner will not face cost awards like we've seen last time, in the Shaw-Rogers transaction. I would say that we're going full out to make sure that we'll have more competition in this country, and I appreciate the help and the support of the NDP in that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll now turn back to the Conservatives.

Colleagues, if we do exactly two rounds, it will be one o'clock.

Minister, I know you have a busy schedule, but I might try to get in a third round from the Conservatives and Liberals just because there was an anticipation of three rounds, even if it is shortened. We'll make sure that we try to move on that basis.

Go ahead, Mr. Perkins, for up to five minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, as you know, because we've had lots of conversations since I became your critic, I spent more than 20 years of my career in retail, in both the C-suite and the executive and on boards.

I'm going to ask you this: What is the gross profit margin of the major grocery players, the gross profit margin on grocery?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say that what we've seen....

By the way, I'm happy that you're following me in every committee. It's great to have the opportunity. I see you in the House and I see you at every committee. It's always great.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I think you're following me.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No, no. I'm saying that you should be happy because you have a minister who says it's great to see you.

What I'm saying is that what you've seen in the last five years is that profit margins of the large grocers have primarily doubled in this country, and that is of concern—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm sorry, Mr. Minister. That's incorrect. They've been flat. They're about 3.7% to 4%, and they pretty much average around there. When you were meeting with the grocery retailers, did you have a meeting—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Just look at Stats Canada, sir. I know you don't have your glasses—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I just.... I'm sorry—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Hold on. Hold on here. Order.

No, no. I've stopped the clock, Mr. Perkins.

Look, your time is yours, and I have to balance that, but if you ask a question, you may not like what the minister has to say. Then, when he responds, if you want to counter what he has responded with another piece, we'll go back, but out of respect of the translators, we will balance this.

You have three minutes and 55 seconds left. It's over to you.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I just read the annual reports. Maybe you don't read them.

Did you meet with any of the manufacturers of the products that the grocers buy?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I met with a number of them, and the list is even public—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay. I don't need you to read the list.

Because you met with them, you must know what the gross profit margin of Procter & Gamble is.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Listen, I certainly would want to put pressure on them, but I don't know where you're going with that—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's 53%.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Are you trying to defend the profits of the large grocers in Canada so Canadians can watch that?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

No. I'm just trying to explain—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No, no. I just want to understand where you're going with that—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm just trying to explain to you—