Evidence of meeting #93 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was grocers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphanie Forcier  Acting Executive Director, Association des producteurs de fraises et de framboises du Québec
George Gilvesy  Chair, Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers
Alvin Keenan  Owner-Manager, Rollo Bay Holdings Limited
Richard Lee  Executive Director, Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers

11:55 a.m.

Acting Executive Director, Association des producteurs de fraises et de framboises du Québec

Stéphanie Forcier

With regard to registration, there was another scenario that occurred this summer when we had a shortage of fungicides because of all the rain. When it rains a lot, more fungicides are needed. These products became harder and harder to get. Unfortunately, we are unable to access these products in Canada.

We have great standards and farmers deliver quality products, but more and more things are being imposed on them. As legislators, you should keep in mind that, when a crisis occurs, we would like to have access to products to save what is left of the crop, but we cannot get access to them because the registration process is really complicated.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you very much, Ms. Forcier and Mr. Perron.

Finally, we have Mr. MacGregor.

You have three minutes, because I gave you 30 seconds back there, or you gave that to yourself.

Go ahead, please.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to turn my questions to Mr. Keenan.

Mr. Keenan, I represent a riding on the other coast, the Pacific side, and certainly my province is no stranger to extreme weather events that have been fuelled by climate change.

We had the atmospheric river in British Columbia, which absolutely devastated our breadbasket, which is the Fraser Valley, and many farms experienced massive losses from that. I think the total amount of damage to our province from that one weather event exceeded $9 billion.

I know that on the east coast you've had your experiences on P.E.I. We had testimony from Nova Scotia farmers during our last committee meeting on this subject.

I would like to pose the same question to you—namely, what hard lessons have farmers on P.E.I. learned from those extreme weather events? In the spirit of your remarks on being proactive—and you can expand on other remarks you've already given—where would you like to see the federal government step in to help farmers achieve resilience and adaptability to what are sure to be increasingly frequent and unsettling extreme weather events?

11:55 a.m.

Owner-Manager, Rollo Bay Holdings Limited

Alvin Keenan

Thank you for your question.

There are a lot of different variables we deal with in extreme weather. In the event of the hurricanes that flattened all the woodland and that type of thing, it makes me wonder where the next growth is going to be and whether there will be any kind of a wood industry left in a number of years.

Going back in history in other provinces, in the 1800s the Miramachi in New Brunswick had a great fire. Since that time it's grown up again, and they have a lumber industry.

What we require is the availability of people and youth. We have trade barriers between our provinces in all respects, including for something as simple as not being able to bring beer from one province to another. Red Seal mechanics, nurses and members of all professions cannot go from one province to another to supply the same service without going through a tremendous amount of retraining. It makes me wonder what we've done. I think we've done things to protect ourselves, and now it's time to take a look at how to keep ourselves from—and I don't want to say this—starving to death. That sounds pretty cruel, but everything to do with protectionism needs to be looked at.

Really, it goes back to cleaning up this land that's been devastated. First of all, we were very fortunate last summer that we had all the rain we did, because with all those trees lying down, we didn't have massive forest fires. If that continues, in another year or so it won't be nearly as dangerous for fire because the wood will start to decay. It will be wet and damp and not support flame as well.

Going back, we need to take a look at all policies so that our industries can grow, whether looking at issues of health care and the shortage of nurses or technicians, engineers, and all types of people.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I'm going to have to stop you there, Mr. Keenan. We have a lot to work on, but thank you for your testimony.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Mr. Keenan from Rollo Bay Holdings Ltd., Mr. Gilvesy and Mr. Lee from the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers.

I would also like to thank Stéphanie Forcier from the Association des producteurs de fraises et de framboises du Québec.

Colleagues, we are going to suspend for two minutes, and then Minister Champagne is up.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Colleagues, welcome back.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 19, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on efforts to stabilize food prices.

I would now like to welcome the hon. François‑Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.

Welcome, my friend.

He has brought with him two senior departmental officials.

Mark Schaan, senior assistant deputy minister, strategy and innovation policy sector, and Étienne-René Massie, assistant deputy minister, small business, tourism and marketplace services.

Colleagues, we'll thank the minister for being able to make some time to come in. This will be the last hour of the study, and then we'll be turning to studying the recommendations that will follow.

Minister, it's great to have you here. You draw a crowd, as you can see. The benches are packed.

Let me recognize some of the folks who are here.

From my province, we have Mr. Perkins. Mr. Williams is from the Belleville area, I believe. From the NDP, we Ms. Idlout from Nunavut. I know, Ms. Idlout, that you'll be sharing your time with Mr. MacGregor in the second or third round.

It's good to see you all here.

Before I go to the minister, I will say that this committee has a great reputation. I'll make sure that we keep that reputation here today because I know he'll want to be able to respond. You guys are going to want to ask really tough questions, but let's keep it inside the bounds of how we play ball at this committee. I know you guys will do me proud on that one.

Minister, I'll pass the floor over to you for five minutes. I'll give you a little bit of freedom.

12:05 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Innovation

Mr. Chair, on that note, you know, we're all going to be..., but I want to thank colleagues who are here.

Colleagues from both sides of the House, thank you for being here. I think that this is a committee where we can have one of the most important discussions. We know that grocery prices and the cost of living are a day-to-day concern for Canadians.

I'm really very pleased to be here with colleagues whom I interact with on a daily basis.

Food affordability is a critical issue. It's facing all Canadians. That's why this committee is probably one of the most important in the work because of the work it's doing. Our government, as you've seen, is really committed to stabilizing food prices in Canada. You've seen over the last month and, I would say, the last year that we've been taking decisive action to do so, and we're starting to see results from that.

Last summer our government launched the grocery rebate, which delivered a payment to eligible Canadians, alongside the quarterly GST/HST credit payment. Then, last fall, our government held a series of meetings with the major players in the food supply chain, both grocers and suppliers, to encourage them to take appropriate measures to stabilize grocery prices in Canada. I was told that this was one of the first times that the CEOs of the five major grocery store chains met in Ottawa. On behalf of 40 million Canadians, I expressed our frustration and asked that they take meaningful action to stabilize grocery prices in Canada.

Indeed, in September of last year, I met with the leaders of Canada's five largest grocery chains to stress the government's expectation that they take action to stabilize food prices in Canada.

Then, in October, you will recall that I announced the tripling of our investment to support consumer advocacy organizations, from $1.6 million to $5 million for the next five years. That was really to create a consumer advocacy culture, I would say. You find it in some parts of the country but not everywhere. I would say that in Quebec that culture is very well ingrained. Monsieur Perron, I'm sure, will be able to talk about that. We need to do that nationally far more to make sure that consumers' interests are well represented.

By providing this additional funding, we are ensuring that consumer interest organizations have the support they need to advocate for consumers and address pressing issues like shrinkflation, which, as you know, Professor Charlebois addressed in this committee. Shrinkflation and dequaliflation are big issues facing consumers.

A few weeks later, in November of last year, we launched the food price data hub to improve the availability and accessibility of data on food prices. That's something we've heard from a number of constituents in the supply chain. You want to establish better leverage between different market participants, and access to information is key to that. The food price data hub provides Canadians with more detailed information on food prices and helps consumers make informed decisions about their food purchases.

As part of our efforts to stabilize grocery prices, we are taking into account the pivotal role that the provinces and territories play, and we understand the need for greater co-operation between Ottawa and our provincial and territorial counterparts. I know that you've had the opportunity to hear from many stakeholders in this sector.

That's why, in December 2023, my colleague, Minister MacAulay, and I met with our provincial and territorial counterparts to discuss the next steps in stabilizing food prices across the country. I want to recognize the work of those counterparts. There is a lot to do. For example, unit price is a measure that exists only in Quebec. What can we do to make that a national thing?

We spoke about several large initiatives during that important meeting. I was told that the last meeting took place around 2017. You see how important it is to hold these kinds of meetings. It is not very often that we have big meetings like this that bring together our provincial and territorial partners. I think that this is the right thing to do to work together.

As you're well aware, federal, provincial and territorial governments have been hard at work with industry partners on the grocery code of conduct. This is a substantial measure that will bring fairness, transparency and stability to our grocery sector and supply chain.

That being said, following three years of negotiations and missed deadlines, we are extremely disappointed that some supply chain partners, including two of the five major retailers, have still not signed on to the grocery code of conduct. That is why the government is currently having a hard look at all the options, including legislative options, to ensure fair and transparent practices in the grocery industry.

Let me be clear. There will be a grocery code of conduct in Canada, one way or the other. I think those who are listening—I'm sure that there are a few folks listening today—should take these words very seriously. We demand action. We judge the action taken, and then there are consequences.

You saw that when we amended the Competition Act. We are looking at all of the tools in the tool box to make sure that we have a code of conduct.

We also recognize that maintaining and enhancing healthy competition in the grocery sector is paramount to stabilizing food prices.

This is why our government introduced and passed Bill C-56, the Affordable Housing and Groceries Act. Among other things, this new law provides the Competition Bureau with subpoena powers to conduct effective and complete market studies. I would say, Mr. Chair, that this was demanded by most market actors. It was unthinkable that in 2024 our main enforcement agency would not have subpoena power, so we fixed that.

We also removed the so-called efficiencies defence to ensure that anti-competitive mergers can now be challenged. It gives the bureau more powers to challenge business practices by large, dominant companies that harm competition and drive up prices.

Mr. Chair, these new powers will not lie dormant. Just last month, I think it was in front of this committee that a representative of the Competition Bureau testified. I also sent a letter to the competition commissioner commending the work done by the bureau in its 2023 retail grocery study report. That report clearly identified important barriers to competition and made helpful recommendations to address this issue.

In that letter, I took the opportunity to express how disappointed I was to learn that the Competition Bureau's study did not benefit from the full co-operation of large grocers. I am hopeful that the new powers provided by Bill C-56 will be a useful tool for the Competition Bureau in countering potential abuses in the marketplace.

Additionally, we are committed to further enhancing competition in Canada through targeted reforms in Bill C-59, the fall economic statement implementation act of 2023. This comprehensive proposal is designed to encourage more competition in all markets, including in Canada's grocery sector.

I want to take this opportunity in front of colleagues in this committee to once again call on all parliamentarians to support this much-needed reform to support Canadian consumers. One concrete action that every member can take is to vote to make sure that we continue our reform of the Competition Act.

Among other things, the proposed measure will modernize the merger review regime. I would think that all colleagues would agree to that. It would strengthen the enforcement framework with respect to collaborations that harm competition. I could not imagine any member being against that. Also, it would broaden recourse to the Competition Tribunal by private parties, which we have heard about from witnesses.

Mr. Chair, beyond modernizing Canada's competition regime, we of course continue to encourage more choice for Canadian consumers. That's why we are engaging with international grocers that have played a key role in improving affordability in markets around the world. If you have questions, I'll be happy to report on that.

Mr. Chair, in conclusion, let me say this. When it comes to grocery prices in Canada, our government is taking decisive action. We are committed to stabilizing food prices across the country and we will continue to work with all levels of government to make sure Canadian consumers get the much-needed relief they deserve at the checkout counter.

I want to thank all the members of this committee. I know, Mr. Chair, that you sent a letter recently to ask for action. I think everyone on this committee has a role to play to make sure we work for Canadians.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you very much, Minister Champagne.

As you made your remarks saying one way or another there would be a grocery code of conduct, I would submit that this committee would agree with that approach. That's exactly why we wrote that letter asking for a couple of the supermarkets in particular to get involved or we would suggest a recommendation for government to actually legislate the code. It was good to hear that today in front of committee.

I'm going to go to Mr. Barlow.

I know there will be a vivid back-and-forth. The minister is a passionate guy. You guys have passionate questions. Let's be fair to the translators, and I'll play referee.

It's over to you, Mr. Barlow, for up to six minutes.

February 27th, 2024 / 12:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Game on, I guess. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you had promised Canadians last fall, as the Prime Minister did before, that by Thanksgiving there would be fundamental stability or lowering of grocery prices. That clearly hasn't happened. When your government failed to do that, you asked this committee to basically do this study again. We had done this last spring.

In knowing that those promises did not come to fruition to stabilize grocery prices, as food inflation is still well ahead of regular inflation, would you not agree, Minister, that any policy brought forward by your government should have the lens of lowering grocery prices and that this should be a key part of those policies brought forward by your government?

Would you agree with that?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, I would disagree with the premise. If you look at the food inflation rate in Canada, the Statistics Canada data shows that the trend is in the right direction. I would say the premise of your question....

What we asked for and what I demanded in front of the five grocers when they were there.... I was speaking on your behalf as well. I was speaking on behalf of 40 million Canadians. I expressed the frustration of all of us, saying that they need to take action.

They did submit a plan. I was not satisfied and I made that very public. I said there would be consequences. The consequence is that we changed the law. With the new power now, the competition commissioner will be able to go further.

I always hear from them that it's a very complex and very sophisticated supply chain and I say, “Put your cards on the table.” If it's that complex and there are a lot of issues, put them on the table so that we and members of this committee can put light on that and take action with you.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thanks, Minister.

I want to go through some of the other policies that your government has brought forward. You can answer whether these are going to lower grocery prices.

Does increasing the carbon tax on April 1 by 23% lower grocery prices, yes or no?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say when you look at the Bank of Canada.... You don't have to take it from me, Mr. Barlow, because I know you trust me a lot. I see you every day in the House of Commons—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Does it lower grocery prices?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

You should take it from the Bank of Canada. You don't need to take it from me. The Bank of Canada—and let me quote—I think said that the carbon pricing has minimal effect on grocery prices in Canada. I think they referred to about 0.2% as the number for the effect it has. I think that's the evidence that this committee should be working on.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

You mentioned Dr. Charlebois earlier.

According to Dr. Charlebois, increasing the carbon tax and keeping it in place will increase wholesale food prices by 34% and Canadians, by the Canadian food price index, will be seeing grocery prices go up $700 this year, so I would ask you to readjust.

Does amending Bill C-234 lower grocery prices?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What will lower grocery prices in this country, Mr. Barlow, as I'm taking from experts, is looking towards competition. What we need is more competition in this country. What you're facing in this country is that you have basically.... That's why I'm here today.

Just look at that for a second, Mr. Barlow. That's the reason we need more competition in this country. You have basically three large grocers that control 50% of the market.

Canadians watching at home will see that. That's what we're fighting, because you and I are on the same side on this. You're fighting to make sure that we have more competition in this country—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Minister, Canadians watching at home are also saying Liberal government policy is actually having the reverse effect on grocery prices.

Does implementing front-of-pack labelling lower grocery prices, yes or no?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say you have to look at the different measures that we've been taking, but the measures that will have the most impact, I would say, on food prices in Canada are around competition.

I would say the grocery code of conduct is certainly going to help restore a bit more fairness in the system. That's something I've heard not only from ordinary Canadians; we met, for example, with the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, and they said that the two things we've done that are the most fundamental for our small stores and our region—and I come, like you, from rural Canada—were the competition aspect and making sure we have the grocery code of conduct.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Minister, you're talking about competition, but implementing the front-of-pack labelling increases costs on manufacturers by $8 billion. Those costs will be passed on to consumers.

Does banning P2 plastics in the fruit and vegetable industry lower grocery prices, yes or no?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say, Mr. Barlow, that there are a number of things that are bringing food prices up in this country. You've seen issues around labour shortages, supply chain issues, profit margins, the war in Ukraine. There are a number of factors, and that's why we've been suggesting—and I think the committee would be with me on this—the new power that the Competition Bureau has today, and having a thorough market study on grocery I think would help.

We've implemented a lot of the things that have been talked about. I think reform of competition is probably the gift that you and I are giving to Canadians, to the extent that you're willing to support that, because honestly, that's what's going to make a difference—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Minister, the gift you're giving to Canadians is much higher taxes and much higher costs that are impacting their grocery prices, and it's incredible that you refuse to answer the questions on the policies that your government has put forward.

The ban on the P2 plastics will increase food costs. This is by Deloitte. This isn't by us, as Conservatives, but by Deloitte. It will increase produce costs by 35%, reduce availability of some products by 50% and cost the industry $5.6 billion. These costs will be passed directly on to consumers, increasing their grocery prices.

There are some things that you are responsible for as a government that are making these costs go up, and yet you are not taking responsibility for those decisions.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Listen, sir, I take responsibility for my actions. Look at what we've done since I started in the last few months. Just look at my record. We met the CEOs, we—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

You refused to answer any question I gave you—

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Hold on.

We met with the grocery CEOs, we made the most comprehensive reform on competition, we increased the consumer—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Yet prices continue to go up.