Agriculture Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Ewa Demianowicz]

I can assure you that, even in Quebec, the majority of Quebeckers are opposed to the transportation of horses for slaughter in Japan.

One of the most common arguments the experts have made is that it isn't the symbolism of the horse that's at issue here, but the very specific nature of the horse, since they are prey animals. Horses are prone to panic and get agitated very easily. I think any objective expert can agree with that. Horses have very specific physiological and psychological needs. This is about the nature of the horse and the fact that it's different from other animals.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay. Thank you both very much.

Mr. MacGregor, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for helping to guide this committee through our study of Bill C-355.

Captain Perry, I'd like to start with you.

I appreciate how clear you are with the amendments. You specifically mentioned the sections you would like to see removed.

Is it your position that if the committee follows through with those amendments, your organization is relatively ambivalent about the status of the bill? Do you support or oppose the bill if we proceed with the amendments?

[Capt Tim Perry]

I will remain silent on the merits of the bill, simply because I'm not personally an expert, nor is our organization.

However, our comments as presented in my testimony are very specific, and if those changes were made, we would have no further objections specific to the bill, notwithstanding what I just said about not being an organizational or personal expert.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you. I want to personally express thanks. I think that hearing from our airline pilots is very important. I think your testimony today is going to be very valuable to this committee in its consideration of the bill.

One thing I'm curious about is the aircraft type that is most often used for the transport of horses.

[Capt Tim Perry]

It's a wide range of aircraft, but the aircraft that are most commonly configured for cargo configuration in Canada that could accept live animals are Boeing 767 aircraft and Boeing 757 aircraft. There are others, but those are the aircraft that are most commonly used in Canada for the purposes of air cargo.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

For a flight, say, that's originating in Winnipeg, given that Winnipeg is a major source of the horses, on a typical trip from Winnipeg to Japan, is it usually a direct flight, or can there be a layover as well?

[Capt Tim Perry]

It would depend on how the flight was planned. It is possible to connect those two destinations with a direct flight, but I would have to look to how any particular flights in question were planned and operated. I would be happy to do so, but at this time I would be speculating as to which city pairs were being utilized for this particular purpose.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Do you have a rough ballpark figure as to how much fuel would be consumed on a flight carrying live horses from Winnipeg to Japan?

[Capt Tim Perry]

It really does depend, sir, on the type of aircraft and the load that was being carried. It varies drastically based on what the total cargo weight is.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Could you provide me with typical number? I'm just looking for a ballpark figure.

[Capt Tim Perry]

Again, I would really like to preface my answer with the fact that this is not the type of aircraft that I am personally trained on.

It's something in the neighbourhood of 50,000 to 70,000 kilograms, or something like that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Dr. Lawson, I'd like to turn to you. You seemed to leave yourself and your organization a little bit of an escape route, because you said that you can't support the bill as written.

What does that mean? Does it mean that if it was written in a different way or if there were amendments made, you could find your way to supporting it? Could you clarify those remarks for this committee, please?

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

As it's written, we see that it's problematic in that it's choosing one type of horse and is not necessarily based on animal welfare. The purpose of this bill is based on the idea that it is inhumane to ship horses by air for export. That's simply not something that we've seen the data support.

What I would say is that the CVMA is happy to be a partner in looking more closely at the legislation and offering insight in a detailed manner. You do have our submission as well, and I think that goes through a number of the points that we've raised to date.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

Finally, in the last little time I have, Professor Dodman, I did pick up in your opening remarks that you have experience with equines, and I would like to hear your reaction to the official position of the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association, because you have a lot of experience in this field.

[Dr. Nicholas Dodman]

I'd like to say first of all that I am partly speaking on behalf of my organization as well as the international organization.

Mine is the Humane Society of Veterinary Medical Association of the United States and North America, really. We have 7,000 members, and I am speaking for all of them. They aren't all equine specialists, but every single person is trained not to a single species. They're trained about horse medicine and horse practices as well as on cattle, swine, dogs and cats, and birds. Our group is really 100% behind banning this practice, and there's a weight of evidence there.

I'm sorry; what's the rest of your question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Well, unfortunately, Mr. MacGregor jammed us in the last 15 seconds. He's a good man, but we're going to have to leave it at that.

We did hear the response from Dr. Dodman that they're in support of the bill.

Mr. Barlow, you have five minutes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I guess my first question is for Dr. Lawson.

Thank you for your letter, your submission and your testimony here today.

The Canadian Veterinary Medical Association represents 8,000 veterinarians in Canada who do not all support this bill because it is not based on sound science and evidence. The science and evidence clearly do not support the allegations of this bill.

Knowing your membership and how important your opinion would be on this legislation, did the sponsor of this bill approach your organization or you personally, Dr. Lawson, for your insights in developing this legislation before it was tabled?

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

No, not to my knowledge. That has not occurred.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

My colleague across the way is trying to insinuate that there's this black hole of animal welfare when the plane lands in Japan. It's my understanding that my colleague was even invited to go and see the feedlots in Japan and declined that opportunity. Most of those whose testimony we've had, those who are supporting this bill, have not actually travelled on the planes with the horses or toured the facilities in Japan.

We have a letter here. I'm going to ask you, Dr. Lawson, if this is something that you would agree with. We have a letter from the Japanese embassy here in Ottawa, and it is outlining their animal husbandry guidelines specifically for horses when they land in Japan. I want to read into the record a couple of statements that come from this letter. Again, this specifically from the Embassy of Japan:

Japanese importers, in cooperation with Canadian exporters, comply with the transportation regulations established by the Canadian government, thus ensuring adequate animal welfare during international transportation.

...Japan is consistent with the relevant international standard, namely, the World Organisation for Animal Health (WOAH) Code. These guidelines outline specific measures to be taken to ensure that horses are adequately transported in a manner that meets international standards. [The Japanese ag association] ensures the compliance of these guidelines by the industry through various measures, such as organizing information sessions for relevant stakeholders.

Would that statement, Dr. Lawson, jibe with your understanding of the process and the regulations that are in place from when that horse is transported from Canada to Japan and through the feedlot process before slaughter?

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

I believe it would.

I would also reiterate that Canada's health of animals regulations take into account the farm of origin, the transport and the arrival at destination. That is covered within our own framework.

Knowing colleagues in Japan, I would suggest that this sounds quite legitimate.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I'm going to move now to Captain Perry.

Thanks again for your presentation here today.

I want to make sure that it is crystal clear what the bill is potentially asking Canadian airline pilots to take on in terms of responsibilities. Is there any other commodity, any other product or any other cargo that a Canadian airline cargo pilot would be carrying that is asking the pilot to be responsible for the end use of that commodity, product or cargo?

[Capt Tim Perry]

No, sir, not to my knowledge.

For instance, with the shipping of dangerous goods, which is something that we undertake regularly, there is a paperwork component to the job; however, the responsibility lies with the shipper and regulator to ensure completion and compliance.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much.

This is an extraordinary responsibility and a cumbersome step that airline pilots are going to be asked to take on if this legislation is passed in its current form. Would that be fair to say?