Subcommittee on the Review of the Anti-terrorism Act Committee on June 21st, 2006

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I think you've raised an interesting point, and certainly organized crime is a major issue and challenge in Canada. Whether what you suggest could be incorporated into this and still keep the balance of civil liberties, I'm not sure, but I think it warrants consideration, certainly.

Maybe we need to bring Commissioner Zaccardelli here to hear what he has to say about that and the amount of cooperation and coordination that's going on today. I'm thinking also about the Air India inquiry. Of course, I feel that was redundant, but you made a political decision. We're now going to be comparing the levels of integration or cooperation and coordination of twenty years ago, that was or wasn't there; and we have a new world today, where I think we're clearly seeing cooperation and coordination going on.

I know in the Air India inquiry they're going to look at other things, but that particular aspect....

I'm supportive of Bill C-36. There are a couple of areas I'm interested in looking at, such as the security certificate process. Actually, it's been around for many years. It's an immigration and citizenship provision, and I think there's a lot of misinformation out there in terms of what information people are privy to. With regard to the independent counsel, I think you've raised an interesting question with respect to solicitor-client privilege and some of the stresses that could create if we wanted to pursue this sort of independent counsel approach, something that I think we should be looking at.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I don't know if you want to react--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Toews.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Very briefly, I think the suggestion here by Mr. Comartin to have specially trained judges doing this, like the investigative judges that places like France have, is an idea worth exploring. Again, it's something I leave to this committee to look at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie, go ahead, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, and thank you to both ministers for being here.

By its nature, terrorism is somewhat different yet connected to criminal activity. The terrorist's real intent is to strike fear into people who are not necessarily the direct victims. They intend to cause some mayhem. I think that sometimes we mix up what we're trying to deal with, and we treat these issues in a criminal sense, as opposed to in a terrorist sense. There is a difference, and I think Mr. Cullen has rightfully made the connection that the security certificates are not directly related to these issues; they're really immigration matters.

Having said that, our borders are one of our major concerns, obviously, as regards products being brought in, or even products going out of the country being used to raise funds for terrorist activity inside.

Minister Day, very recently--perhaps this week even--the head of the CBSA made a statement to the members of the other House that it'll be three years before we have our border guards armed and the single, work-alone border crossings covered. Does that seem like a reasonable length of time, given the situation out there in the real world?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Three years refers to the completion of the first large segment, but there will be armed officers as early as, if I recall correctly, next July or September. The first armed officers will have been trained and gone through the process. There are three years to complete the first section. The entire process could take from eight to ten years to have everybody trained and in fact carrying a sidearm. That's pretty close to the speed at which the U.S. implemented their program about 25 years ago. In terms of work-alones, the training is beginning now; the resources have been obtained through the budget process to address recruiting and training in terms of the work-alones. It's coming to a theatre sooner than you think.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Norlock and I come from another side, and we would question that length of time to train people for arming them at the border. Are there other issues, in addition to the training for firearms, that take that length of time?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

There are a couple of issues here. First of all, as you well know as former officers, there's a lot more to this than, “Here's how to hold a firearm. Aim and shoot.” They have to be fully apprised of all of the legal ramifications that go with carrying a sidearm. We hope it will never have to be used, but its use in a place as populated as a border port would be will require extensive training. That's being done carefully.

There is also the whole aspect of the contracts for the trainers. They want to eventually get into training trainers so that they can keep their costs down and in fact have trainers certified within CBSA so they can do their own training. It's not something that can be done overnight, simply because it isn't taken lightly.

That explains some of the reasons for the delay. Again, in terms of the work-alone sites, we're talking about recruiting people. You have to go through the whole recruitment process, and then the training. They're going to do that as expeditiously as possible, but it will take some time.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We're talking about arming the border people who are currently there, so that's not really recruiting.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

As you know, it's a three-week training program they're anticipating, so they have to bring in the replacement people and arrange their shifts so that all this can take place. Though it sounds like a fairly simple process, there's a little more to it than meets the eye.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think it's fair that the community understand that it is more than simply giving them firearms and sending them out there.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'll say, too, that the unions are very positive on this, very cooperative. You know, it's been their request for a number of years to have the sidearms so that they don't get into situations, as happens sometimes, where they have to vacate the border and lock it down because of a danger approaching the border.

So it's going to work well, but it takes time.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That's all I have, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.

We're going to go to the third round. Mr. Wappel.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Like Mr. Cullen, Ministers, I'm supportive of this act; I just find it inconceivable that an act of Parliament of this complexity could be passed that is so perfect that department after department, assistant deputy minister after assistant deputy minister, and acting ministers have been unable to suggest any constructive amendments whatsoever to this act. I believe the only person who's uncomfortable with it as written in some parts is the Information Commissioner--I think I'm correct in that--and also possibly the Privacy Commissioner.

Let me raise just two specifics that I'm just curious about.

I'm wondering if you don't find it curious, Ministers, that the act makes it illegal--perhaps you can check with your officials here--to facilitate the commission of a terrorist activity or to finance a terrorist activity, but it does not make it illegal to undertake a terrorist activity.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'll get the Minister of Justice to parse that out with you, but can I say this. I just don't want the notion hanging out there any longer that the Liberals created a perfect law.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

That would be difficult.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It was done with Conservative help.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Right.

I think it does suggest the prudence and the caution that all of us took in the development of this law. And it is not perfect. It has been tested rarely, especially on the idea of security certificates; the security certificates process may not hold up.

So I think it speaks to those two things. It speaks to the proper regard that parliamentarians have for our individual freedoms and human rights in areas of secrecy and privacy. It also recognizes this heightened danger. That's what it speaks to, though it's not perfect--and the other fact, that it has rarely been tested.

I don't want to speak to the powers of the investigative process. To clarify the question from Mr. Cullen earlier on the charges, the charges themselves were under the ATA. But as to the investigative process from here on in, and what's being used, I won't be commenting on that.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Minister Toews, do you have any comment on the fact that it's not illegal under the ATA to undertake or engage in a terrorist activity?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I would suggest it is illegal to both engage and undertake--

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Under what section?