Bill C-11 Committee on March 13th, 2012

[Mike MacPherson, Procedural Clerk]

The issue is that clause 36 amends section 32.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Right.

[Mike MacPherson]

And we've just carried clause 36.

Clause 37 deals with section 32.01, so we'd be past section 32.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

My understanding, Mr. Chairman, is that this would amend subsection 32.2(1) of the act. I'm anxious to hear what the officials have to say, but obviously it requires unanimous consent.

It's the amendment from the Canadian Photographers Coalition.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Mr. Regan, if you're talking about section 32.2, then that is under clause 38.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Okay, I'll wait for that. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Okay. So we have carried clause 36 and now we're moving on to clause 37.

(On clause 37)

Is there any discussion on clause 37?

Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I have government amendment G-6. I'll go to the officials for comment on the effect of this amendment to the bill.

[Anne-Marie Monteith, Director, Copyright and International Intellectual Property Policy Directorate, Department of Industry]

This would create an exception that would allow a not-for-profit organization to export adapted material for the perceptually disabled as long as the work being adapted is by a Canadian author or a national from the country to which the adapted work is being exported.

For example, if the adapted work is being exported to country X, the author of the work must either be a Canadian or a national of country X. Concerns have been expressed that the nationality of an author may not always be easily determined and that the bill, as currently worded, could leave an organization open to be sued for damages for mistakes that have been made in good faith.

So this amendment would clarify or would allow the courts to take into account good-faith efforts taken by the not-for-profit organization when awarding damages, and copyright owners would then be able to seek only an injunction against the not-for-profit organization rather than damages.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If anyone has had a relative or a child with perceptual disabilities, they realize they are faced with roadblocks from day one, not just a perceptual disability. Pretty much in every single grade, you will find the institutions of education are very slow at responding to the needs of people with perceptual disabilities. If there's a way around doing something, they will go around it—not all, but it happens. It's institutional. It's difficult.

You find professors who simply will not change their course plans because they don't like to change their course plans. Young people drop out of courses. This is a dramatic reality. If you're blind or you're hard of hearing, course after course, if you get to university—if you can actually get there—you will end up facing professors who say, “Well, I'm not going to accommodate for this, that, or the other reason”. Of course, having a copyright bill that says if you tamper with a lock, you are going to be facing infringement, it's an enormous incentive for institutions to do nothing rather than address the legitimate need and the legitimate human right to be educated.

We've seen with our Conservative counterparts that they've turned down every reasonable amendment to ensure that people with perceptual disabilities are not further punished, in order to protect a corporate business model. We've seen no willingness from the Conservatives to move, realistically or in good faith, on any single good-faith amendment brought forward.

However, as New Democrats, as much as we believe this bill is fundamentally flawed—and it is pursuing a corporate business model over the basic rights of average Canadian citizens and artists—we will accept this amendment because we believe it is important, wherever possible, to amend this bill to ensure the basic rights of Canadians. So here it's the issue of the ability of people to engage in culture, to share culture. Particularly, as my colleague said, in our concern for the francophone communities, where the access to works is a smaller pool than what we have in the larger area of North America, it is essential that we show good faith as parliamentarians.

We haven't seen any sign of that good faith on the other side. They've been a stone wall on every reasonable amendment. However, we are not going to go down that road, because there's a greater issue here, which is to ensure that average people, especially people with perceptual disabilities, those who are the most marginalized in our community, are able to participate fully as active citizens.

In a sign of good faith from our caucus, we will support this amendment.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think what I just heard Charlie say is that this is a reasonable amendment from this government, by changing an area that needed to be changed.

I do want to comment, though, on his speech about teachers and people in educational institutions who just throw up roadblock after roadblock for people with disabilities. As he knows or might know, I have a 16-year-old with autism. While there are roadblocks—and certainly there are many roadblocks that need to be addressed—our experience with the education system has been fantastic. In our experience, we've met wonderful teachers, wonderful administrators at schools, who have done everything they can do to accommodate Jaden's particular disability.

We're talking about a 16-year-old who doesn't talk, who has a really hard time understanding anything that isn't concrete. Teachers and aides have gone to extraordinary lengths to create a circumstance where he can actually participate in a regular classroom and really benefit from it in a way that is not only a benefit to him but a benefit to the other kids. So I think this characterization of the educational community as a community that just simply throws up roadblock after roadblock after roadblock for people with disabilities is unfair, quite frankly.

Certainly I agree: there are roadblocks there. In this bill we've actually sought to address some of those.

Maybe what I'll do is just turn to the officials and have them comment again on the bill itself and what the bill does for people with perceptual disabilities, just to bring some balance to the conversation.

[Robert DuPelle]

Well, just to recap, I will cover some of the clauses we have already seen. The bill will provide for further amendments to the existing exceptions related to persons with perceptual disabilities. It's an expansion in terms of who can benefit from the exception.

In relation to the new clause that's being proposed in relation to the export of materials, this is a new provision that allows for the export of adapted materials to other countries. Along with the new proposed measures with respect to technological protection measures, there is a specific carve-out in relation to circumventing technological protection measures for persons with perceptual disabilities.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. DuPelle.

Seeing no further discussion from Mr. Lake, we have Mr. Regan and then Mr. Angus.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Chair, far be it for me to defend Mr. Angus, who can defend himself quite adequately, I'm sure, but it wasn't my impression that he was trying to denigrate the work of the teachers. He did say that people face obstacles sometimes from some teachers, perhaps.

I don't think he and Mr. Lake disagree on that point. I agree with Mr. Lake. Except for perhaps the grade eight geography teacher who insisted that Bermuda was a Caribbean island, I also had an excellent experience with teachers, both for myself and with my children. They do wonderful work.

I will be supporting the amendment.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

I have Mr. Angus and Mr. McColeman.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I'm very pleased to hear of Mr. Lake's experience. I think we're all very passionate about education because we see it through our children's eyes. I think it's excellent that he has had that experience.

My daughter was born severely deaf, and she had excellent teachers. But institutionally the reason she ended up getting a master's degree in international human rights law was having to fight, pretty much in every course at every level of the way. Her experience was that people with perceptual disabilities often did not want to have to confront because they were left in the situation themselves, especially at university.

This is why the issue of ensuring that it's easy.... You have to make it easy for the institution to do the right thing, because sometimes they'll choose not to. We actually dealt with the issue of copyright numerous times. Copyright was given as an excuse for not accommodating, which actually was a contravention of human rights law. I'm glad that Mr. Lake has had an excellent experience.

My daughter has done very well, but I've seen many young people she knew who had to fight and were impeded by institutions saying that they can't break a digital lock or they can't contravene copyright to accommodate them. That's simply not good enough when it comes to the needs of young people to get an adequate education.

So we're on the same page.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

We're on to Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I'll just add to the discussion.

Again, as a father of a brain-damaged child, my experience is similar to Mr. Lake's. All accommodation has been made through his life. And I know Mr. Angus has been to my community of Brantford, where we have one of the finest institutions, called the W. Ross Macdonald School for the Blind. It's one of the premier institutions in Canada. Those who need help get help right through to graduate studies from the Canadian Institute for the Blind. There is a huge support group for people with visual disabilities out there.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. McColeman.

Is there further discussion on this amendment?

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I have just one point.

I have not had that experience, although my parents are foster parents and we've dealt with young people who have issues.

One thing that was really clear in the witness testimony we had was the issue of inclusion. It's a good thing that there are institutions available for people with perceptual disabilities and so forth, but what they're looking for is inclusion in society, not separation from society.

With these amendments and the ones we've brought forward, we will be supporting the ones from the Conservative side. It really is a step closer to inclusion, and I hope this is just the beginning of that process.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Benskin.

(Amendment agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

(Clause 37 as amended agreed to on division)

(On clause 38)

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

We're now moving on to clause 38.

Mr. Angus, go ahead.