Evidence of meeting #7 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.
Actually, no.
We talk about format rights or rights and ideas. They were doing something very different. The core difference between the two series is that in Degrassi, there are two tenets. One is that you are not alone. You may think you are going through something horrible, but you are not alone. The second is that you have choice, but every choice has a consequence. You are empowered, but every choice has a consequence. That was never a part of Beverly Hills 90210.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. Stohn and Mr. Armstrong.
Degrassi was much better than Beverly Hills 90210. We don't even need to go around that debate.
Going on to the next five minutes, we will have Mr. Regan.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I second that emotion.
I will first turn to Mr. Hollingshead.
You mentioned the Supreme Court of Canada decision in the CCH case. Is it your view that incorporating in the bill the six-step test enumerated by the Supreme Court of Canada would provide sufficient clarity, or at least some clarity?
Chair, Writers' Union of Canada
I don't think that is enough, because it talks about six factors, and market impact is not the primary one. I think what the bill needs to do is what the backgrounder says it is going to do but doesn't, at this point; that is, it should take into consideration the legitimate interests of the copyright owner and not harm the market for a work, provided that the fair dealing use is fair. I think the market impact has to be primary, and I don't think CCH does that.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much.
Mr. Barr, in terms of extending copyright to directors, do you see any reason to distinguish between moral rights and economic rights in this regard?
National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Well, both moral rights and economic rights are helped by directors, certainly. Typically, what happens is that in the remuneration package directors in Canada sign, they waive the moral rights and sell the use of copyright, if I can put it that way, for purposes of rebroadcast.
Any moral rights have to do with how you allow your work to be portrayed and the way it can be rebroadcast. It aims at ensuring that the integrity of the work is maintained, and that's referred to, of course, in the legislation.
The problem we have with the legislation, as I pointed out earlier, is that it applies only to authors. If Bill C-11 doesn't identify the directors and screenwriters of audiovisual works as authors, then in that respect, the waters are muddied with respect to their moral right.
It's not that they don't have the right. This would not be an amendment that creates any right—
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
I think you've made the distinction in the sense that the economic right is often signed away, but the moral right ought not to be.
National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
It's held until waived, but it's not waived for money.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Mr. Stohn, what's your view on this, and what do you think would be the view of most production companies?
President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.
Unfortunately, it is the exact opposite.
President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.
In the United States the production company or the producer is effectively the author and owns all rights. They're our largest partner. The CMPA and I, personally, over the years have lobbied for a clarification that the producer be identified as the author. I thought it was a very astute question to ask if there is a difference between the economic rights and the moral rights, and indeed there may well be. That could be a useful compromise in the end.
To me, this is not a technical amendment. I want to make it clear that the directors perform an absolutely valuable service and a vital service in the creation of an audiovisual work, as do the writers, as does the director of photography—the camera work is essential—as do the editors, as do the sound editors, as does the music score, as do the actors. In a typical Degrassi, we use about 150 different people, all of whose contributions and talents are vital to the success of the show.
There's one person who gathers those people together. There's one person who decides that this is the right mix so that the team spirit is there, and that this is the approach for it to be appropriate for The CW as opposed to being appropriate for HBO. One person raises the money to do all that. That person is the author, and that person is the producer.
National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Could I have a hot-pursuit answer on that?
National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Well, in 30 seconds, then, all I'll say is this: certainly the producer's proprietorial interest in the product that is generated in the cultural industry is obviously terribly important, but it's important to notice also that Mr. Stohn is a member of an organization that negotiates regularly with the Directors Guild of Canada, and, in the context of the agreements made with the Directors Guild, there is an unambiguous acceptance of the author's rights that attach to the director's role.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
You sure can.
That's the end of our first round of five minutes of questioning. We are now moving on to our second round of five minutes of questioning.
Mr. McColeman is first.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you to all for being here.
I noticed Mr. Stohn shaking his head during the response from the Directors Guild. I'll carry on with Mr. Regan's line to get your response, because I noticed your head was shaking.
President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.
I do not believe there is anything in the independent production agreement that acknowledges in any way that the director is an author, nor in the agreement with the writers' guild. Yes, there are royalty payments, as there are with the writers, as there are with actors, and as may be negotiated with others in the process, including other producers, but that, to me, doesn't.... Those kinds of economic relations, which also exist in the United States, where it's very clear that the producer is the author, are in no way an acknowledgement that the director is an author.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
I'll move to another line of questioning, piracy, which was touched on earlier.
You had mentioned in your presentation, Mr. Stohn, how devastating it is to you currently. Has anyone looked at, from your business, the actual...? Is it possible to quantify what's going on right now, as it continues to grow and continues to steal?
I'd actually like a response from all the panellists, from each of the groups, as to what you think the impact of piracy is today on your businesses.