Evidence of meeting #7 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Tucows Inc.
They were asking about the climate in Canada around some of these issues and were pursuing, on behalf of their clients, locating significant stores of data and moving them—American companies and American clients—to Canada because the climate might be healthier.
These were not illegitimate companies; these were very large companies that would all be familiar to you. There is a fear of overreach out there.
If Canada can be a world leader in that regard, then that to me is much more important not only to our economy but also to a healthy, open Internet, which is what I care about for my children.
Conservative
Conservative
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Perfect. Thank you, Mr. Braid.
We're now moving to Mr. Angus for five minutes.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you. It's a very interesting discussion all the way around.
I want to follow up on a question from my colleague in the last round.
Mr. Noss, you said that you liked the balance, but you talked about your concern about the enabling language. I see that you're a member of the Business Coalition for Balanced Copyright.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
There are some pretty heavy-duty players in that.
Given the experience with SOPA and the huge backlash that burned many U.S. politicians' fingers on that issue, do you see language that can work in terms of dealing with...?
We all have a common interest in going after people who should be shut down—
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
We also share a common interest in ensuring that we don't destroy the platform that is still emerging. Have you seen language that can actually focus in on this? Is this the time? What is your recommendation?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Tucows Inc.
I will tell you that when I dug into Bill C-11 as it currently stands, I was pleasantly surprised. That would be right way to put it. There is the appropriate expansion of exceptions for fair dealing, as well as the notice and notice provisions and the statutory damages. Three or four things in there are world-leading and give Canada an opportunity to set a model for the rest of the world.
The interesting thing about that is that there are countries over the world—again, I meet with representatives in the ICANN context—that are looking for an alternative to some of the heavy-handedness going on in a couple of jurisdictions, and the U.S. in particular, sadly. I think there's a fantastic opportunity and a uniquely Canadian opportunity here.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Lauzon, we’ve talked many times over the years. I was interested in how you define copyright. Perhaps it's simplistic, but at its root you said that copyright is a payment, a fundamental right that is at the heart of what we're talking about. It's who gets paid and when they get paid.
I've been noticing at our committee hearings that my colleagues in the Conservative Party call copyright a tax. They use “tax” all the time. They say that it's not fair to business, yet when we're talking about the ephemeral exemption that's being created, it seems that on something that has been adjudicated by the Copyright Board, which has defined the right to be paid as the $20 million that musicians, artists, and publishers receive, they want to use an exemption to deny people who have been adjudicated at the Copyright Board the right to be paid.
Do you believe it's the role of government to intervene at the Copyright Board and say that not only will you not get the $20 million, but while we’re at it, we’ll be taking the $30 million you received for the digital levy? They'll be taking $50 million and will intervene in your business model and say that it's fair. What is the feeling of the members of SODRAC?
General Manager, Society for Reproduction Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers in Canada
The Copyright Board is recognized worldwide as a place that establishes the value of the right. Participants are using it, especially in the right of reproduction, for which, under law, we can negotiate with our partner. We can do it as arbitration or we can go for a tariff.
The Copyright Board establishes the tariff and looks at the practices. You members of the committee have to establish the rules under which the copyright owners, who are the creators, are going to be paid, are going to be remunerated. I mentioned in my text that sometimes, especially in music, copyright is the only remuneration they receive.
Every three months, when I pay my 2,500 members who are songwriters, composers, and publishers, copyright is the only money they receive. They receive money from us, which is the reproduction right, and they receive money from SOCAN, which is the performing right, so they receive different types of rights, but these rights are all recognized.
That's why, in this new digital economy, you have to bring forward rules in the legislation to protect the creation of the work for the creators we have—
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. Lauzon and Mr. Angus. You're out of time.
We're now moving on to Mr. McColeman for five minutes.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you very much.
I thank all of you for being here and providing your thoughts and ideas on helping us determine what that balance is.
I might just comment on the comments of my colleague who just finished. I don't think anyone at this table is looking to not strike the right balance and to not make sure the creators, the people who create the work, the artists of the world, don't get compensated properly. Perhaps the structure of that is what we are considering in terms of how we strike the right balance to make sure they are treated fairly.
I hear comments—the comments of Mr. Noss and the comments from the Shaw representatives—in terms of seeing this as what I would call a huge moment of opportunity for our country. I heard the Google representative, Mr. Glick, talk about his vision for what Canada could be in a digital environment if we get this right. This is hugely important to us.
Mr. Noss, my question is to you. You talked about your customers and their customers. I appreciated the way you addressed us in terms of describing that structure in order for everyday Canadians to be able to understand it. Can you take it from the small business person out there who is dealing with maybe the two-person operation that you said would be lost if we don't get this right? Could you talk a little more about that and how important it is to local economies, such as the one in my community?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Tucows Inc.
Sure. From its inception, from the launch of dial-up, the Internet has really been a local business. It has been millions and millions of local businesses. In the early days, every single city in Canada had local ISPs as the first- or second- or third-biggest provider. It was only with broadband and big infrastructure that this changed. In web hosting, it is a local business. In web design, it's a local business.
What happens on occasion is that you have what I would call chilling effects. If the provisions are too broad, then they will be used, and they will be used to intimidate and to discourage. It's the smaller folks on the supply side who get hurt most by that.
We're dealing on behalf of our customers all the time—and when I say “all the time”, I mean weekly—with what is just a lament: “I don't know what to do. I've had this threat brought to me. I've had this demand brought to me.” It's equal parts, by the way: a legal practice that's unsophisticated about Internet matters, just as a lot of us are, and an overreaching. You get equal parts of both, but the outcome is the same.
Again, that's why I like that phrase “sharp knives”, because what you provide in the legislation.... As Mr. Angus said, we all want the bad guys stopped, and service providers probably work harder at that than anybody else in the Internet community, but boy, those sharp knives fall hardest on the smallest.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Right. We also heard this from those who are distributing works through, specifically, small radio outlets, people who are employing maybe up to 50 employees in their operations. We heard some of the challenges they face in terms of making sure they do pay their fair share, but that they don't pay too much because someone in this equation has a sense of their own interests, which leads to them wanting more of the equation than the equation can handle, or else it all collapses because everybody's so interdependent.
I'd like the Shaw people to comment on this, if you would. Wouldn't it be advantageous to all the players if the balance were struck the right way and we had that incredible opportunity as a country to expand our digital commerce? Wouldn't it be of great benefit to the creators, to the people creating the works, because of what would open up to them?
Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Shaw Communications Inc.
I totally agree with that statement.
I was listening Mr. Noss's comment; the more restrictions you put on the service providers, the ISPs, the more costs we incur. The more costs we incur, the more expensive it becomes to build out these networks.
We have some of the best networks in the world. We are a leader in the world when it comes to broadband. If you start nickel-and-diming, with a little cut here and a little cut there, then all of a sudden the incentives to build out this network and to remain in the forefront and continue to be world leaders in broadband just evaporate. I think the unintended consequences of some of these proposals are very significant. That's why we believe this balance is—
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. Brazeau and Mr. McColeman.
Mr. Regan has the last five minutes of the first round.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Let me start with you, Mr. Brazeau; we might as well keep going a bit more. I'd like to talk about something a bit different—namely, what time will it require for ISPs to comply with the notice and notice provisions? What kind of complications are there in that, and what problems do you see?
