Evidence of meeting #8 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
That is all the time you have. Thank you.
Now we go to Mr. Lake for the final round of questioning in the second round.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you again, witnesses, for coming before us today.
One of the things I find interesting is that before this committee we hear all about the negative side to technology and we hear very little from the different representatives about the positives.
Ms. Saxberg, you talked about how there was a time when you used to listen to a song on the radio and then a couple of days later, or the next day, there would be a lineup at the record store. I live in a world where now I listen to a song on the radio, I pull out my iPod or my iPad, open up Shazam, find out what the name of the song is and buy it within a minute on iTunes, and I pay for it, or I might even buy the album and I pay for the album.
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
Bless you.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I would say that's a tremendous opportunity for creators, not a cost to creators.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Of course, if we get this copyright bill right, we will create an environment in which consumers will pay for their music. It's something that admittedly is a problem. It hasn't been happening over the last decade or so, and we want to create an environment where that does begin to happen.
I guess I'll ask you a question. What other opportunities do you see for creators of music if we get this legislation right?
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
I think you've raised a good point. I think it is important to clarify that we are certainly not coming here as Luddites or haters of technology. Music publishers have always dealt in an intangible. We deal in the business of the song. So whether it's a player piano or an eight-track tape or an MP3 file, it's just another day at the office to us. We are not wedded to a particular technology or a particular format. I think we've shown over the years that we can adapt fairly quickly to different kinds of technology. We are not anti-technology at all. We see tremendous opportunities within the Internet.
Certainly having the ability to expose the kinds of music that radio is not always comfortable playing goes exactly to your point. Take a look at the great new service on CBC, CBC Music, on which you have all kinds of channels and all kinds of music that doesn't get played on typical radio in Canada. Right now there's tremendous potential for exposure of music with technology. What we haven't caught up with is the same kind of tremendous ability to be compensated, and that's the piece that we have to put into place. It doesn't mean that we—
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I would argue—and sorry, but my time is really short—
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
—that actually we do have.... When I can instantaneously find out the name of the song on the radio, which I've never heard before and which is by an artist I've never heard before, and I'm able to purchase that music instantaneously, I would say that artist is getting compensated in a way that would never have existed before.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Oftentimes in the past, I would have gone on with my day and forgotten about the song and certainly never would have made the purchase.
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
I agree absolutely. But the thing is, your behaviour is not widespread behaviour. If all Canadians were like Mike Lake, we would probably be much better off as a music industry.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I like that. I should almost end right there. But I'm not going to.
Ms. Shepherd, you made a statement that the music is delivered at no cost to the radio stations. You kind of let it hang there. Is there a law that prevents the music industry from charging the radio stations for the music?
Executive Director, AVLA Audio-Video Licensing Agency Inc.
No, absolutely not.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
So who makes the choice to provide it at no cost?
Executive Director, AVLA Audio-Video Licensing Agency Inc.
That would be the rights holder.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Okay, so just for clarity, there's no law that prevents that.
Executive Director, AVLA Audio-Video Licensing Agency Inc.
No, absolutely not.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
You could charge. You choose not to because it's good for exposure.
Okay. I just wanted to make sure we were clear on that.
One of you made a statement at some point in the conversation about the reproduction right, and you talked about the opportunities that radio stations have that are made possible by the reproduction right. I would make the argument that the possibility is there, and the efficiencies are actually made possible by IT providers who develop the technology that allow them to transfer the music and play it in a different way.
Is that maybe more accurate?
I'll just ask this. What do music creators do to create that technology that allows them to realize those efficiencies?
Executive Director, AVLA Audio-Video Licensing Agency Inc.
I can't speak to the IT industry and what they invest in terms of creating these kinds of mechanisms. What we have seen and what the Copyright Board has adjudicated is that as a result of the technological innovations that have led to enormous efficiencies, the broadcasters have been able to increase their profitability. Those statistics are cited on the CRTC website as well.
I'll go back to the Copyright Board's mechanism, because they do look at all of those factors, including ability to pay. I don't think anyone, including the broadcasters, has disputed that there's a value to the copies. What we're here asking for today is just to make sure that the stated intent that copies would be temporary actually materializes in the bill.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
We've heard a lot of talk about all sorts of different things that may or may not be true during the committee hearing, and I always like to go back to the facts, go back to the legislation, go back to some of the documents that are being referred to.
I would note that the Berne Convention, when it talks about reproduction rights says:
It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.
That's what the Berne Convention says. I don't think anyone would argue that this is a technical reproduction. It doesn't add value or change the music in any way. In the Berne Convention, what would prevent us from changing legislation to allow that?
We're being asked by you to change the 30-day exemption one way, by what you call a loophole.