Evidence of meeting #28 for Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joe Wild  Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice

6:45 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice

Joe Wild

It is very difficult for me to answer that question with any real certainty, Mr. Chairman. Obviously the government hasn't costed the amendment as proposed. So in terms of the actual cost of complying with a regulation that would require proactive disclosure of every contract, I simply don't know what that figure would be. We'd certainly be talking about a large number, considerably above the 450,000 contracts, but I can't answer with any specifics.

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I would suggest, then, just in conclusion, Mr. Chair, that perhaps as a friendly amendment we consider putting a limit on this, so that it's not totally wide open. Whether it's $5,000 or $10,000, there should be some practical or realistic limit where the public interest is really at risk, so that we don't lose focus of the larger issues.

Maybe I could suggest as a subamendment that it be $10,000, so that it is in law.

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

A limit of $10,000?

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

No, all contracts over $10,000.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

All contracts limited to $10,000 and—

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Limited to $10,000 and greater.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Have you concluded, Mr. Owen?

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Yes.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We have a subamendment to the amendment.

Mr. Dewar.

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

That is a friendly amendment.

I just want to underline—and it was very deliberate—that we had basic information on government contracts. So it would be company X, with an amount of money and a descriptor. It was very basic. So we're not talking about full disclosure of the whole contract here, but it's to give Canadians an understanding.

With that in mind, I thank Mr. Owen for his input and friendly subamendment.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Just so I'm clear, we will vote on the subamendment and the amendment.

Mr. Poilievre.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Owen has introduced a very interesting subamendment. I'd like to get the views of our panel.

6:45 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice

Joe Wild

Mr. Chairman, one of the issues that I do want to raise with respect to this amendment--it's the amendment, less so the subamendment perhaps--is that it is unclear to me, in the scope of what we're doing under proposed section 42, when the amendment refers to government contracts.

I just want to make a point here. We were very careful in the language we chose in proposed subsection 42(1)--kind of the chapeau part of the section, if you will--to talk about contracts, meaning any legal agreement that would be considered a contract. So it's larger than just a services contract or a goods contract; it would include employment, a real estate agreement, a lease, anything.

And we were very specific in proposed paragraphs (a), (b), (c), and (d) to narrow...where necessary. So, for example, under (b), where it's meant to only apply to government procurement, if you will, we were very careful to talk about contracts “for the performance of work, the supply of goods or the rendering of services”.

I'm not sure what the intention of the motion is.

If it's actually meaning all government contracts, which would include transfer payments, grants and contributions, all real estate, leases, procurement of goods, procurement of services, then, quite frankly, we are probably talking over a million; I don't know if we're going to get into millions, but we are talking a very large number. It would be well above the 450,000 procurement contracts.

So I just want to raise that there is an issue in terms of what this particular amendment is actually focusing on.

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Let me make a suggestion to you, Mr. Wild.

If new paragraph (e) was worded “requiring public disclosure of basic information on all government procurement contracts over the amount of $10,000”, would that work?

6:50 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice

Joe Wild

In order to stay within the language we use in the Financial Administration Act, if the intention is to cover government procurement contracts, I would suggest that it should read, “information on government contracts for the performance of work, the supply of goods or the rendering of services”.

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Well, I would make that friendly amendment and that would pick up the wording of the other--

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Owen, please clarify your subamendment.

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

As I understand Mr. Wild, the subamendment would therefore say:

(e) requiring public disclosure of basic information on all government contracts for the performance of work, the supply of goods or the rendering of services over the amount of $10,000.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Does everyone understand the subamendments?

Some hon. members

Yes.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Owen, are you finished?

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Yes.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I have Madam Guay.

Monique Guay Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Mr. Chairman, I merely wanted to say that most of this information is already available in any event. We're not talking about an enormous sum of money. I would venture to say that over 80% of the information we're seeking is already available. Therefore, the government need only disclose the remaining 20%. As far as I'm concerned, it's a sound amendment. If no one else wishes to speak to the motion, I request a vote.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I will.

(Subamendment negatived)

(Amendment negatived)