Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on May 9th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Hopefully they will consider that they shouldn't really get into policy.

[Kathy O'Hara]

And I won't, thank you.

I do want to clarify a number of those cases. For example, there will be a new commissioner of lobbying, who will be an agent of Parliament.

But in terms of bureaucracy, we already had a registrar, so basically the registrar is becoming the commissioner, so that's not new bureaucracy.

The public service integrity officer, likewise, is an agent of Parliament, but it was previous legislation that established that position. So that is not a new position that's created under Bill C-2.

The parliamentary budget officer, of course, is not an agent of Parliament. It has not been established that way. It is linked to the Library of Parliament.

The director of public prosecutions, again, is not new bureaucracy. That is effectively the existing federal prosecution service in the Department of Justice.

From that perspective, I don't see a lot of new bureaucracy being created in the legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a comment, first, to follow up on one of the questions or comments by Mr. Dewar on the change that this proposed act would have, inasmuch as rather than the government being able to appoint returning officers, the Chief Electoral Officer would appoint returning officers on merit-based appointments. I know that your party, Mr. Dewar, is in support of that, and the Bloc also. As a matter of fact, I think it was a very vigorous Bloc suggestion to have this done. So I am also very pleased to see this in the bill.

My comment is merely this: I sit on the House procedures committee and Dr. Kingsley appeared before our committee. I asked him whether he was working on establishing this merit-based package that would determine the qualifications required for returning officers. He informed me, Mr. Dewar, that he already has that done. In fact, when I pressed him on how long it would take—because we're in a minority Parliament we don't know when the next election might be called—he said if and when the bill is passed, he would be able, in his estimation, to appoint or have returning officers in the 308 ridings across Canada appointed and in place within two months. He said the bill has first to be passed in order to allow him to go out and do that.

I would suggest that when he appears before this committee as a witness, you can ask him about the package of qualifications he feels is required, that type of thing.

The question I have specifically is on trust funds, again an issue that Mr. Dewar raised. We've all heard stories about trust funds and their impact on election campaigns. Is there any empirical evidence, any studies you've seen that demonstrate how trust funds have been used and how many of them have been used in election financing in individual campaigns?

[Kathy O'Hara]

No.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

What evidence have you at all that suggests that trust funds have been an issue in the financing of local riding campaigns?

[Kathy O'Hara]

That may be something, again, that you'd want to ask the Chief Electoral Officer. He keeps records of what the spending is and what the source of the spending is.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

That's a fair comment.

I have no more questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Madame Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to get back to election advertizing by third parties. It is important for us to discuss the issue. It shouldn't be taken lightly. I saw Mr. Poilievre's earlier tally, but there are other ways to go about doing things. I have seen several things over the 13 years I've been here.

Third parties could earmark $3,000 each, but they could advertize together or exert pressure on a political party. It's already been done and may well be again. I would like your opinion on this matter. In my opinion, we have to find a way to prevent that from happening.

[Marc Chénier]

There are provisions in the Canada Elections Act prohibiting third parties from working together to commit funds during an election campaign. So, this offence is already provided for in the Canada Elections Act.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

It's already covered in the Canada Elections Act?

[Marc Chénier]

Yes. In fact, any collusion between a political party and a third party would be prohibited.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That is good to know. It means that we will not need to go back over that.

We still do not have the results from the last election, as the election reports have not been completed. We have until the end of May to complete them. It will take some time for the Chief Electoral Officer, Mr. Kingsley, to know everything that happened during the last election campaign.

I believe that we need to review several aspects. The costs associated with the new commissioners are of great concern to me. We should have more information on that. You do not seem to have enough information for us on that. If possible, please send that information to our researchers to give us an idea of the costs and the way it will be done. That would really help us to assess the situation and make amendments to Bill C-2.

[Kathy O'Hara]

We could, for example, put together information on the current spending. As I mentioned before, some of these are not new agents of Parliament. What we could do is give you the current spending of some of the agents of Parliament who are addressed in legislation.

I'm sorry, we and the Treasury Board Secretariat working together would do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

If you send that to the clerk, it will be distributed to members of the committee.

You still have a couple of minutes.

[Kathy O'Hara]

No, that's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That concludes the second round.

Madame Jennings, you have three minutes.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you. If I understood what you said, there is no limit on spending by a third party during an election to promote the interests of a candidate or a party, provided that this spending does not fall into the category of election advertising.

If you are the experts who are appearing before this committee examining Bill C-2, perhaps you also participated in developing Bill C-79 which was tabled in Parliament by the former government during the last session. The purpose of that bill was to amend the Canada Elections Act to restrict the ability of third parties to use money received by individuals or corporations for election advertising.

When a member of the committee says that it is not a problem, that the former government never took action to limit advertising or spending during federal elections, that is not entirely accurate. Moreover, it is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I am asking each one of you if you worked on developing Bill C-79, if you were consulted, etc., and to explain to committee members who are perhaps unaware of the situation, because they were not members during the last session, that the previous government did in fact table a bill covering this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Unless there's unanimous consent, the time has expired.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

They could do it in writing through the chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, you know, 40 minutes has gone by.

If the witnesses could send their answers in writing to the clerk, it would be helpful. We'll distribute it to members of the committee.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Is there unanimous consent, first of all?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We've run out of time, Madame Jennings. I'm sorry--unless you want to change the rules again, and I don't think you want to go there.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

We'll recess for a couple of minutes. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Gentlemen, I'd like to reconvene the committee, please.

In our third group of witnesses this morning, we have Ruth Dantzer, president and chief executive officer of the Canada School of Public Service. Good morning to you, and thank you for coming to the committee. I don't know whether you have any opening comments, or will we get right into it?